Yoshi-P on Tenacity

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Eh, according to one of the theorycrafters, 2170 Tenacity will give you -10% mitigation, and apparently damage scales similarly albeit slightly worse. -10% mitigation is definitely something. I heard Storm's Path was really good for prog.

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Storm's path was good for aoe damage though, just like delirium, soil, disable, and to some extent divine veil. 10% mitigation in aoe damage may be the difference between people getting one shot or not when ilv is low. 10% mitigation on tank would be really good for smoothing out auto attacks and cleaves, but that also depends on how hard bosses' auto attacks hit. In fights like a12s where the boss auto attacks don't hurt much and cleaves are always paired with tank busters a permanent 10% mitigation won't be as powerful as in fights like a9s where auto attacks comparatively hurt more and cleaves are spread more evenly throughout the fight. Mitigation from tenacity would be nice to have, but nowhere near as good as path/delirium back in 3.x.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

So if we, for arguments sake, say that a tank puts DH in every slot, or tenacity in every slot, they would give up ~0.8% damage for 3.8% damage reduction?"

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520 is the most you can meld on left-side. Nobody is going to meld anything but STR on right-side.

520 tenacity = about 2.5% dmg reduction. 520 Dhit would give you about 1% more DPS over 520 Tenacity.

Tanks choosing 1% more dps over 2.5% more def is a no-brainer. How often did you ever get down to 2.5% health in a raid and live? If you ever gotten that low it's cuz your healers are both dead and you're about to wipe.
And healers overheal. Whether you're at 80% health (no tenacity) or 82.5% health (tenacity), you're goin to be healed to 100% anyway in the next Cure II.

So 2.5% dmg reduction isn't necessary or being utilized all the time if ever at all.

Meanwhile 1% more dmg is always being used.

A 2.5% stat with less than 1% use, or a 1% stat with 100% up-time are the choices.

The only way Tenacity will ever be a go-to stat is if it's an exponential increase variable. The more you have, the more potent it becomes. And if future tank gear is filled with it so you can hit 2,500+ tenacity with melds.

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

520 is the most you can meld on left-side. Nobody is going to meld anything but STR on right-side.

520 tenacity = about 2.5% dmg reduction. 520 Dhit would give you about 1% more DPS over 520 Tenacity.

Tanks choosing 1% more dps over 2.5% more def is a no-brainer. How often did you ever get down to 2.5% health in a raid and live? If you ever gotten that low it's cuz your healers are both dead and you're about to wipe.
And healers overheal. Whether you're at 80% health (no tenacity) or 82.5% health (tenacity), you're goin to be healed to 100% anyway in the next Cure II.

So 2.5% dmg reduction isn't necessary or being utilized all the time if ever at all.

Meanwhile 1% more dmg is always being used.

A 2.5% stat with less than 1% use, or a 1% stat with 100% up-time are the choices.

The only way Tenacity will ever be a go-to stat is if it's an exponential increase variable. The more you have, the more potent it becomes. And if future tank gear is filled with it so you can hit 2,500+ tenacity with melds.

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It doesn't HAVE to be an amazing stat. There will always be a worst stat, I'm not trying to say that I think it's better than DH, but I'm just saying that it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than parry ever was. If I get tenacity instead of det or skillspeed? Right on. If I get some instead of DH or crit? Oh well, it's not a huge deal.

People are overreacting, and tenacity does not need a buff (but I wouldn't be against a buff if they ever decide to, though :P)

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

The only way Tenacity will ever be a go-to stat is if it's an exponential increase variable. The more you have, the more potent it becomes. And if future tank gear is filled with it so you can hit 2,500+ tenacity with melds.

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But it is? Well, technically not exponential, but it gets stronger the more you stack it. If let's say 100 ten gives you 1% reduction from base dmg, and you take 10k dmg, adding 100 ten from base, you'd reduce it to 9900, adding 100 ten to 1000 ten would be reducing 9000 dmg to 8900. It's still a 100 reduction but going from 9000 to 8900 is relatively stronger than going from 10000 to 9900.

People need to understand that while linear/additive dmg boost is worse than multiplicative dmg boost, linear/additive dmg reduction is better than multiplicative. Tenacity, if we assume it to reduce dmg linearly, doesn't suffer from the diminishing returns stacking mitigation cds has.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Tenacity is better than dh as is. You gain 80% of the dos benefit while taking less damage. Less damage means more healer dps. It's overall a greater dps gain than dh. As for melding, the reason it seems useless is because melding for anything is useless. Dh gives pitiful amounts from melds as well.

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WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

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You know, I'm not sure your numbers are right. The reason being SE know the exact way in which each stat scales. Short of someone intentionally trolling layers I can't conceive of Tenacity scaling as poorly as you suggest, nor that Direct Hit would scale decently for Tanks at all. It would be a trivial Excel exercise for them to math it out. So, short of SE having malicious intent, you are wrong. And I have a very hard time believing SE would be so cavalier as to allow this kind of trolling.

He's wrong, but DH does scale very well on tanks. Each point of DH is about 1.3x as powerful as a point of Tenacity.

It could use an adjustment so it's more like...1.2 Ten/DH or something so it's 80% as valuable even as OT, but it's not trash by any means.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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It's more of a middle ground. 180-220 tenacity gives a 1% damage, damage reduction, and healing recovery. Going full fending gear as of now with as of now should hit you close to 1200 tenacity which is around 6% damage reduction and increase. If it was lower to say 100 or so, tenacity would be a broken stat.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ect_hit_data/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...o_stat_values/

That being said Tenacity is a very strong secondary that looks to get better as we an increase in ilvl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMOVb-x6xr4&t=1s

Direct hit scales at 1% proc rate per 35-40 points, NOT 1% dmg increase per 35-40 points.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

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first off, if you want to compare stats, you should compare similar inputs. If we go for the longshot scaling, we get 40 DH for 1% rate, so 160 DH for 1% damage up, and 200 tenacity for 1% damage dealt up, damage taken down, and heal received.

The theoretical set-up is 520 melds because right side is pure STR (let's not introduce the i270 STR accessories here since SE clearly wants them gone) and we ignore tenacity capping. We also ignore the fact that melding crit would be better than DH or tenacity anyway.

That means 3.25% damage up from DH (13% DH rate) and 2.6% damage dealt up, damage received down, and healing received up. You're trading 0.65% dps for 2.6% damage reduction. We'll consider 2,000 dps for tanks for simplicity's sake, and susano's damage on tanks. Which is give or take 1,700 dps over a 9 minutes fight (with CDs used accordingly so that a VIT tank would not die and allow healer dps). You're trading 12 dps dealt for 44 dps received. Or, over 9 minutes, 6,480 damage dealt for 23,760 damage received.

Now what does it mean in measurable terms? Well, your 6,480 damage dealt are neglictible in the 8.6M HP pool of Susano. Like, really. Utterly neglictible. Your team DPS is above 15k, which means melding purely DH over tenaticty helped your team get a 0.4 second faster kill.

Meanwhile, Tenacity shaved off 23k damage received, which, in my PFs' usual HPS, means about 2 seconds of healing (6k HPS overall from each healer). Said healers got 2 seconds to dps more then, and their dps is about 600 (again, in PF parties, not top raiders). That means 2,400 damage that are done by healers that you could not take into consideration by just looking at the tank stats on paper. What you are trading in the end is neglictible damage dealt for not-so-neglictible damage reduction.





Even at top raiding level, where tanks do 3k dps and healers have combined 3k dps over 6 minutes with still the same 1700 dtps, DH gives 18 bonus dps over tenacity, so 6k damage over the fight. Meanwhile, tenacity saves 15,840 damage, which is about 3 seconds of healing according to FFlogs, so 9k damage done by healers.


Conclusion : Tenacity is far from being shit, and even wins out in the long run as your healers are able to pump out more dps. With that said, the difference in damage between DH and tenacity is so neglictible that you may as well just take tenacity just because the damage reduction makes it better in the end.


Conclusion #2 : All of this is irrelevant anyway since you'll meld crit anywhere you can before even considering DH or tenacity. Considering the lack of DH on tank gear, in the remaining few spots where crit is already maxed, you might as well put tenacity for reliable dps rather than cling to a 5% DH rate with neglictible returns.

EDIT in regards to conclusion #2 : apparently, crit is now somewhat dull in regards to DH. So you'd want to meld tenacity or DH instead, making DH the go-to meld on tenacity-capped stuff