Problem: Items are Worthless

The game already has a mechanism in place for crafters to self-adjust the HQ/NQ rate: Bold vs Standard. This system could be elaborated, but tweaking HQ rates doesn't address underlying issues. If the HQ rate is too high, you flood the market. If too low, you spend your time repetitively crafting and hoping. Neither is a good situation.

Making HQ items require rare ingredients is one solution. If the rare item is an NM drop, then the crafter is left on the sidelines, only called into action if a drop is obtained. If the rare ingredient is a rare crafting result, then you're back to repetitive crafting.

It would be nice if there was an NM equivalent for crafters. HQ results for extraordinary effort. As it is, once you have your materials, crafting mundane item-X is just like crafting exceptional item-Y. The process is the same. The challenge is in obtaining the proper materials or else in spamming long enough to get lucky.

Imagine if instead of fighting a challenging NM the DoW/DoM only fought normal dodos and got the valuable drops only if they popped the dodo with a rare pop item or else slaughtered enough common dodos to get a rare drop. Wouldn't be very satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Solipse

...Let me first state that my opinion on this comes decided from lack-of-self-interest and more from my sense of what's right and fair. If you notice, I have no DoL jobs above R21...

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I don't think you understood my point. In your proposed system DoL are basically worthless (HQ mats are completely meaningless and may as well be removed from the game). Your proposal completely favors DoH. DoH can just grind out a ton of NQ goods using NQ items and end up with super expensive HQ end results.

HQ mat = HQ result is more balanced between DoL and DoH than your solution.

For your solution they may as well completely remove HQ materials all together. The other solution allows HQ materials to remain worth while and removes the problems with just being able to spam NQ mats to get HQ goods anyway (right now).

EDIT: if you want to get into who has worse DoL I think my highest is fisher at rank 18 :p.

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Originally Posted by moatcarp

I don't think you understood my point. In your proposed system DoL are basically worthless (HQ mats are completely meaningless and may as well be removed from the game). Your proposal completely favors DoH. DoH can just grind out a ton of NQ goods using NQ items and end up with super expensive HQ end results.

HQ mat = HQ result is more balanced between DoL and DoH than your solution.

For your solution they may as well completely remove HQ materials all together. The other solution allows HQ materials to remain worth while and removes the problems with just being able to spam NQ mats to get HQ goods anyway (right now).

EDIT: if you want to get into who has worse DoL I think my highest is fisher at rank 18 :p.

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No, I really don't think you're understanding the system as proposed.

How could you think that HQ mats are worthless under this system?

Suppose 1 assembly of crab bows is worth 100k in mats.
8*100k = 800k spent for a +1
8*800k = 6.4m spent for a +2
8*6.4m = 51.2m spent for a +3

Now suppose you can pretty much guarantee a +3 item with 10 combines of all +3 mats.

That means each combine of +3 mats is worth approximately 5.12m, or 51.2x as much as NQ mats. Please explain to me how that's "essentially worthless". In fact, the real value is much greater than this because instead of spending 10h assembling crap bows, you can instead spend 20m doing 10 synths.

If anything that will drive the cost of HQ mats way, way up. I hardly see how that makes DoL useless.

From the OP:

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Originally Posted by Solipse

...If I switch to carpenter and open up my synth menu and stick two, three or more crab bows into my synth box, I can attempt to fuse them together into a higher quality version...

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This means that I just grind out a ton of NQ bows then synth them all together until they are HQs. This means that I don't need any HQ mats to get HQ goods. This means that HQ goods are essentially worthless; no one ever needs them for anything.

The whole problem you're trying to address is essentially the elemental staves market problem in XI. I don't think your proposed solution would work out as perfectly as you think.

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Originally Posted by moatcarp

From the OP:


This means that I just grind out a ton of NQ bows then synth them all together until they are HQs. This means that I don't need any HQ mats to get HQ goods. This means that HQ goods are essentially worthless; no one ever needs them for anything.

The whole problem you're trying to address is essentially the elemental staves market problem in XI. I don't think your proposed solution would work out as perfectly as you think.

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Maybe my last response was confusing. Let me highlight, here. Would you rather farm/buy:

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512 red coral, 512 green megalocrab shells, 471 iron nugget, 43 iron ingot, 43 bronze wire, 43 bronze nugget, 1536 antelope sinew, 86 ahriman wings, 142 buffalo hide, 1024 aldgoat horns, 256 oak logs, 43 marmot pelts, 43 biast scales, 512 hippogryph sinews, 6144 earth shards, 512 wind crystals, 2009 wind shards, 86 fire crystals, 3072 lightning shards and whatever crystals the 512 synths of each bow require.

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or

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10 red coral +3, 10 green megalocrab shells +3, 6 iron nugget +3, 2 iron ingot +3, 2 bronze wire +3, 2 bronze nugget +3, 30 antelope sinew +3, 4 ahriman wings +3, 2 buffalo hide +3, 20 aldgoat horns +3, 3 oak logs +3, 2 marmot pelts +3, 2 biast scales +3, 12 hippogryph sinews +3, 520 earth shards, 10 wind crystals, 48 wind shards, 7 fire crystals, 60 lightning shards and whatever crystals the 10 synths of each bow require.

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You have your choice, here:

Farm/Buy 5,266 materials, 11,225 shards, 1,622 crystals
Farm/Buy 107 HQ materials, 628 shards, 37 crystals

Yeah, you're right, you don't NEED to buy HQ materials, but if the option is open to you and you'd RATHER gather that staggering amount of materials to do your synth, well, you're pretty dumb. I'll again insist that under a system like this, HQ materials will be at even more of a demand than they are right now.

Let's assume that under this system, NQ materials will be at X while +3 materials will be 50 times more expensive: Let's assume each shard is 200 gil and each crystal is 1500 gil.

NQ cost to make +3 bow: 64,995,000
HQ cost to make +3 bow: 62,981,100

Here's the thing, even if +3 mats are 50x higher price in the retainer area, they end up being CHEAPER in the long run to get your +3 bow (not guaranteed, but then again you may get lucky and get 2 or even 3 +3 bows since this is 10 combines worth of HQ mats). Not only THAT, but you only have to do 60 total combines instead of 2800. Let's figure out time savings assuming that each HQ combine takes 2 minutes. Let's also assume that each base combine (to make all 512 crab bows) takes 1 minute each, and that each additional combine (merging 8 bows into one higher tier bow) will take 30 seconds each.

Total synthing minutes for NQ materials : 2,777 minutes
Total synthing minutes for HQ materials : 118 minutes

So not only do you SAVE MONEY, have a chance at getting more than just a single HQ bow, you also save 44.5 hours of synthing time in making them.

Please explain, in detail, why you think this system makes HQ materials worthless, exactly? Stating that it will is not enough, please back up your opinion. Do you actually think that, with all this in mind, there's anyone who would willingly NOT pay for HQ materials so they can stockpile an entire retainer full of materials, pay more money for them over HQ AND spend two days synthing instead? Please back up your assertions with math or economic principle, not gut feeling.

"It may not work like you think" isn't good enough - every change to an economic system, no matter how minor, has a chance to affect that system in unexpected ways. The only "safe" alternative is to do nothing, which this game cannot afford. Please back up your assertions.

The point of this system isn't to make HQ materials worthless (as proven above, it does the opposite). The point of this system is to add a check/balance to item cost that when item costs for a particular item dip too low, there is an incentive for people to buy those items and combine them.

In a system like this, anyone who sets OUT to make a +3 item by combine NQ materials is idiotic. It's not something someone will set out to do, but rather something someone will do when goods costs dip too low.

Maybe add an ability to be able to HQ (no longer able to hq below r50) Say it's a r50 ability for all classes. It would be an all or nothing synth. Your either lose the mats if it's not a HQ version, or you get a HQ. I know it would save me time dropping failed hq synths. No one is making a killing on selling nq weapons and tools.

But about op's suggestion, I don't like the idea of fuzing items to potiently hq the synth. How ever it would be cool of you could fuze 8x of the exact same weapon / tool (including hq) and with a successful synth (the synth would be 5 ranks higher, than the weapons / tools your using), you remove wear from the item, so it would never break down.

This dude seems stressed, I think he needs gils.

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Originally Posted by Scarface

This dude seems stressed, I think he needs gils.

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I've got 45 or so million gil sitting in the bank, I'm fine. Nice attempt at trolling, though; I'll give you an A for effort but a D for execution.

Someone like me is going to continue raking in gil hand over fist in the current economy. This post was about making things fair for everyone else.

My retainers bazaar has more than 45mill gil in items to sell, just saying...You're only as rich as the man next to you.

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Originally Posted by Scarface

My retainers bazaar has more than 45mill gil in items to sell, just saying...You're only as rich as the man next to you.

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I can price an item for a billion gil, doesn't mean it will sell, and it doesn't mean I have a billion gil.

Again, A for effort, D for execution. :)