Integration of the Sword: Red Mage

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Originally Posted by Eloah

but let's not start the SMN debate again with RDM.

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Difference here is that there have been discussions and feedback on RDM since the beta to ARR (actually before that if you consider threads like this one; yes, that's a thread from 2012). Anyone who gave feedback on this is more than justified in feeling displeasure or disappointment.

Comparing that to SMN is a false equivalence, because the SMN issue is a lot bigger and comes from several sources. I won't say more on it here because we can discuss that in a SMN thread instead of a RDM thread.

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For the millionth time this is not XI-2

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Mentioning Enspells =! wanting FFXI-2. Especially since enspells was one of the few good ideas the game had and made absolute sense in the context of RDM.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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I don't mean this in a negetive way towards you, but you realise that posting that link just gives validity to my claim, and the narrowmindedness/tunnel vision that is solely focused on XI.

And in regards to the SMN debate, there is no difference. If people are claiming that XIVs RDM isn't what a RDM is supposed to be, it's the same exact, unfounded and uninformed debate that SMN has had, and I hope is done with. You are right any SMN info should be posted on a thread about them, but just remember their active issue comes from their execution not their premise. You don't hear people bitching about SCH having a fairy, do you?

I just want to point out quickly that no dev in the history of forever has ever taken inspiration from a "Job Concept" post and ran with that, usually they make all the decisions internally, people can be mad about it if they want, but honestly posting about it probably had 0 effect and I honestly doubt anyone at SE read any of the threads, they brought us "SE presents FFXIV Red Mage" which is fine, it was never going to be "SE presents Poster 1, poster 397 and poster 49823's conglomerated mess of an RDM we shoehorned in to make people happy" anyone who convinced themselves that "My concept was amazing I hope they use it" was begging to be disappointed.

Edit: Not that any of the concepts were bad (although I'm sure some were), it's just extremely unlikely that they would've had an influence.

Well while i do question some decisions they have made on jobs, i do not blame developpers as it is their game after all to make decisions. If it were up to players ideas that could in turn be worst, lol

What if the mana costs for the sword skills were reduced, or mana generation rate was increased? That way, no major chamge would have to happen to the skill set while allowing more swordplay.

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Originally Posted by CrossSabre

What if the mana costs for the sword skills were reduced, or mana generation rate was increased? That way, no major chamge would have to happen to the skill set while allowing more swordplay.

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Then that means they'll do more damage and would break the DPS Job balance.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I don't mean this in a negetive way towards you, but you realise that posting that link just gives validity to my claim, and the narrowmindedness/tunnel vision that is solely focused on XI.

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You're attempting to put a label on people who were basically pointing to how RDM was used in FFXI and saying "don't do that". Almost every time it's come up the gist of the discussion included the points "no buff botting" and "more use of the sword". People like me went a step further and pointed to how hybrids were treated in other MMOs and saying "look at these guys and learn from them".

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And in regards to the SMN debate, there is no difference.

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As I said, the SMN problem is more complex because the issue comes from several fronts. The RDM issue is that they implemented the job as a caster with a sword instead of a sword & spell hybrid. One spends most of the time spamming spells, the other ties sword use and spells into a neat package with mechanics and interactions between both aspects of the class.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Not that any of the concepts were bad (although I'm sure some were), it's just extremely unlikely that they would've had an influence.

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SE has acted on feedback before. Otherwise glamour would not be in the game, and neither would Hunts ("we want NM's in the game"), Palace of the Dead ("we want Nyzul Isle in the game") or Diadem ("we want Dynamis in the game").

The devs wouldn't even need to use 1:1 copies of suggested skills or mechanics; implementing the job in the direction as per feedback would have been more than enough. When said feedback included "I want RDM to use their sword more", that's not something that translates into "I want to spend most of my GCDs spamming spells".

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Then that means they'll do more damage and would break the DPS Job balance.

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This, pretty much.

If you make it easier or faster to hit 80/80 under the current system, you need to nerf either baseline abilities or the enhanced sword skills. Nerfing the former makes RDM DPS sine wave between dealing really low damage when building mana and dealing high damage when spending mana. Nerfing the latter makes RDM DPS flatline and renders the mana and spellblade mechanic worthless.

PS: Just so that we're clear on this, I'm aware that the devs can do whatever they want with the game. It is theirs to develop, after all. That being said, I am also free to criticize them as much as I want.

That's not job mechanic feedback though. Glamours is a paltry model swap and they haven't touched it or mentioned seriously touching it since implementation, I'm not going to go over the others since they're feature requests which are different from rewriting a class, note I specified Job Concept feedback threads. If you want to argue concepts here, RDM never was some fantastical spell-sword weaver, basically it was "Cast or Dualcast whatever elemental spell the boss is weak to until you're out of MP then use attack since there's nothing else to do and I'm out of Ethers" I understand the limitations of turn based gaming since that's pretty much every FF game that included RDM, but it's not like they gave RDM Attack-Cast in FF5, they gave it Dualcast, which again isn't necessarily the linchpin to say "RDM is a caster," that linchpin would be that they implemented RDM as a caster in XIV, they're unlikely to change it because some players have creative differences.

You'd probably be better off asking for Mystic Knight, again not saying the concept is bad, not saying that RDM does not or does need to be changed mechanically, at this point it is very unlikely they'll be changing RDM since most feedback of how it plays is very positive and they've got bigger job related issues *cough* SMN *cough*

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're attempting to put a label on people who were basically pointing to how RDM was used in FFXI and saying "don't do that". Almost every time it's come up the gist of the discussion included the points "no buff botting" and "more use of the sword". People like me went a step further and pointed to how hybrids were treated in other MMOs and saying "look at these guys and learn from them".

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I am not trying to label anyone. But if people are basically saying that XIV's iteration of RDM is wrong because "it's not a real RDM" then they are misinformed. Every FF game has a different iteration of each job that fits its needs.

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As I said, the SMN problem is more complex because the issue comes from several fronts.

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The SMN problem is not complex. the issue with SMN is the execution not the iteration. If people said that XIV's version of SMN isn't a real SMN, and people are starting to do the same thing with RDM, then the arguments are exactly the same.

People are allowed to not like these iterations, and they can offer suggestions/ideas of how to better them. And they are allowed to indicate that they like one iteration (possibly XI) over this and other ones. But, you can't blindly say that one version isn't truer than the other, when throughout the series that is not the case

Again I use the example: You don't see people complaining that SCH has a fairy.

Because in the other games SCH never has a pet, or are dedicated healers

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The RDM issue is that they implemented the job as a caster with a sword instead of a sword & spell hybrid. One spends most of the time spamming spells, the other ties sword use and spells into a neat package with mechanics and interactions between both aspects of the class.

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In regards to the RDM issue. There is no issue. RDM has and always will be primarily a caster, it's right there in the name Red MAGE. They have always had higher physical stats compared to the other mages, but it was still lower compared to the dedicated physical damage dealers; they share this trait with Geomancer. RDMs are not Mystic/Magic Knights, who are physical damage dealers.

Just like in every FF game each job conforms to meet the needs of that particular game. And RDM especially since its a middle ground job is given some unique treatments so that they remain in play for a long time. Dualcasting in V, Enfeebling in XI, BP recovery in BD, Spell Blade in Dimensions, and I'm sure there are others.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

I understand the limitations of turn based gaming since that's pretty much every FF game that included RDM, but it's not like they gave RDM Attack-Cast in FF5, they gave it Dualcast, which again isn't necessarily the linchpin to say "RDM is a caster," that linchpin would be that they implemented RDM as a caster in XIV, they're unlikely to change it because some players have creative differences.

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And the reason they didn't give RDM Attack-cast or anything beyond Attack and Magic was because it gives the job too much to do, which is not a good thing given how turn-based combat works, combined with the fact that the job system FFs required the devs justifying the existence of more than a dozen jobs.

When every job is designed as a one-trick pony, you can't put too much on RDM's plate because it creates redundancy in a system where forced uniqueness through gimmicks is the norm. It's why some job concepts tend to come off as torturously contrived, while others are weighed down by limits of the design approach taken.

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You'd probably be better off asking for Mystic Knight

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Given that Mystic Knight is a completely separate beast from RDM, I can't call that a better alternative. It's like asking for Beastmaster and getting Calculator and being told to shut up and like it.

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not saying that RDM does not or does need to be changed mechanically, at this point it is very unlikely they'll be changing RDM since most feedback of how it plays is very positive and they've got bigger job related issues *cough* SMN *cough*

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I haven't seen much in actual reactions, aside from people saying the job either offers too much utility or that Vercure is too powerful for being on a DPS class. Sure, some are content with having something bearing the name regardless of gameplay and mechanics, some are enamoured with the fact the job doesn't have superfluous mechanics like BLM and SMN, but not everyone thinks like that. I'm not alone in disappointment, but others have simply gone back to their mains or simply find the discussion pointless seeing that the developers have committed to the current design.

Just so that we don't get any more replies to my posts (really, please don't reply to this), I won't be able to reply anymore after this one, as my account has about 12 hours left before it goes inactive. Not a ragequit per se, since this is something I promised myself I'd do back in 2012 when I decided to support this game. Maybe things will change enough someday that I'll give the game a second chance, but I don't count on it.

Have fun, and give the upcoming content bosses a few good hits for me.