Pld Oath's on GCD

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Originally Posted by shao32

or you know, nerf WAR, there is no balance in the WAR and thats the problem.

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The problem is that if they did this, the content would have to be nerfed to compensate. Non-DPS slashing debuff, a damage down that works on Darkness damage(Darkness damage shouldn't even exist in the first place), and burst damage from Berserk are indispensable, the solution is not to nerf what's strong, it's to make the other choices more competitive.

PLD/DRK have nothing to compete with in an offtank position currently, but off GCD tank stance might make the gap a little smaller.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

snip.

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you speak like WAR damage / tank damage in genera is indispensable to clear content whe the devs say already the dps checks are now made without healer and extremly high tank dps in mind.

i say nerf war like a option but i dont say what, the conten is already pretty easy to do, healers are pretty over at the level whe have a main healer and a off healer how only dealt some shileds X time and the rest is dps, whe have a lot of extra dps from healers and tanks already.

war is a paradox, a high dps tank but mitigate at the level of a paladin and vry close to drk in magic, self heals to the level to don't need a healer in may scenarios, infinite resources management plus buff slashing damage on 3 jobs at hem self and have one of the best raid mitigations moves, thats not a tank thats is a god, the str meta prove that and the vit meta chain hem a little and is still the best in everything.
my question is in this game whe have to work together to compensate the flaws of the others and move forward together, ¿how you compensate the flaws from a job how have none?

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR. DRK and PLD offer nothing together because they're too similar. DRK should have been its own unique job that worked with either PLD or WAR, instead we got something that competes with PLD and can only work with WAR. I really don't think copying the mechanics of one job to "fix" the others is a good idea, they should all be unique with their own advantages and disadvantages instead of clones with off-GCD tank stances, slashing debuffs and a % damage reduction debuff.

I don't think that stances are the issue.

Jobs in similar roles show variations in raid utility and individual dps. This is usually balanced in other roles by allowing a job which brings less individual dps to compensate by boosting your teammates' dps.

The problem with tanks is that they are differentiated on the basis of mitigation and individual dps. However, mitigation is pass-fail, so every tank is designed to be capable of surviving a fight when actively tanking. Having a mitigation advantage in a fight only matters if it translates into more time out of stance while actively tanking. If you can stay out of stance for the entire fight regardless of what tank you pick, then the highest dps tank gives you the biggest advantage. This is part of the reason why WAR is a permanent fixture in every composition, and why double WAR can be optimal in fights where the damage output is trivial or occurs in short bursts.

The other reason is Storm's Eye, and the fact that there's no incentive for NIN to use Dancing Edge with a WAR present, outside of not having access to a rear positional. NIN might as well not have the debuff. As a result, WAR brings the most benefit to both individual and raid dps.

To gain an advantage from a PLD/DRK comp, you would need two things. First, you would need DE to be dps optimal for NIN, irrespective of whether a WAR was present. Second, you would need a fight where both tanks were forced into stance usage simultaneously for a good portion of the fight (i.e. both actively tanking and receiving non-trivial damage) In such a situation, the ease with which you could stay out of stance on PLD or DRK with bonus cooldowns might translate into a dps advantage.

In the absence of such a fight design, it's silly to design the tanks with differing levels of individual dps output.

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Originally Posted by Launched

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR.

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"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"
real funny, this is why SE will never listen to NA forums for balancing

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Originally Posted by Lyth

To gain an advantage from a PLD/DRK comp, you would need two things.

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No, you need one to even start with. A reason to bring them that isn't "so we don't get nerfed LB from 2 WAR", which doesn't exist right now.

SE and SP are realistically too strong, especially for progression. NIN needs enough gear to outweigh needing to apply DE in a DRK/PLD comp and then you'd only be equal with a lesser geared NIN + DRK(PLD)/WAR group. It's doable at that level, so you could argue that it's balanced enough, but that comp's viability is completely lost in early progression. The only thing you gain from going DRK/PLD is access to both Reprisal and Divine Veil, which neither outweigh the loss of SP.

WAR doesn't necessarily need to be nerfed, though. You could give DRK and PLD unique advantages that outweighed (or equaled, preferably) having SE + SP from WAR. You could also make DE DPS optimal, WAR or no WAR, and that might round out the DPS inefficiency at least.

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Originally Posted by Launched

DRK is the problem with tanks, not WAR.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

"DRK isn't OP so it's the problem, not this blatantly powerful class"

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Launched thinks the problem is DRK because it messed with the tank meta and became too similar to PLD, when the WAR/PLD dynamic worked in 2.x. I however think you are both wrong, and PLD is the problem. The class has nothing unique going for it over the other two jobs, and has a toolkit that is trying to do too many different things that don't synergise (i.e too many situational skills that will never/situationally get used - tempered will, cover, awareness, clemency, divine veil etc.) and the job is trying to be both a wall and a support job (the more interesting of the two). To see what PLD should be, play it in pvp, where it is immensely fun to play.

As well as this we have the low damage output, clunky GCD, and lack of any gameplay gimmick (wrath stacks and darkside being WAR and DRKs), and we have a job contributes less and is thus left out of the meta.

im alwais find funny hor the WAR is supose to be the dps tank, with high dps, low mitigation and a lot of self heals, and then the have the WAR here with vengeance, the best of the 3 plus low recast, inner beast no recast only 6 seconds but up every time you have 5 stacks, in 2.x i find this 2 good bcs are a nice tool kit to compared to paladin, but now in 3.0 with raw intuition and equilibrium.

my point is now i see the tanks whe have 4 thinks, 1 personal dps,2 raid support, 3 personal mitigation and 4 self heals.

when
PLD is: 1 low, 2 middle, 3 high, 4 middle
DRK is: 1 middle-high, 2 low, 3 middle phisical high magic and 4 low
WAR is: 1 HIGH, 2 HIGH, 3 HIGH, 4 HIGH

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear but all 3 tanks are at 10k hp in their respective stances ex, Defiance, Shield Oath, Grit respectively at the time of the tank buster hitting them in the example that I used. Spooky is right in this regard. I can't find the source but I remember Yoshi comparing WAR to PLD like driving a manual car and automatic car respectively. With warrior you have full control of your defensive and offensive actions and take into account when and how to use them. With paladin it's like automatic, you simply use a skill and the rest takes care of itself. Their tank stance reflect this with warriors being very flexible while paladin's being rigid.

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Originally Posted by shao32

you speak like WAR damage / tank damage in genera is indispensable to clear content whe the devs say already the dps checks are now made without healer and extremly high tank dps in mind.

i say nerf war like a option but i dont say what, the conten is already pretty easy to do

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<1% clear rate across NA servers and you claim the content is already pretty easy to do? So I assume you've cleared A8S with no healer DPS and mediocre tank DPS?

They said they tune the DPS checks for 85-90% of the theoretical max DPS you can get from 4 DPS players. Maybe there is some super-human somewhere on this planet without public fflogs parses that can accomplish that but for everyone else, reaching 85-90% of your theoretical max DPS in a live fight is impossible.