Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

...It's why we have Stone, Sky, Sea...

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Isn't that entirely so people could practice rotations in a way that both allows you to learn them while giving you a goal towards pushing for? I am thinking the correct thing, right? Are you saying everyone should only learn rotations against end-game things where, depending on the fight, you can't learn it on the fly?

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Just like Heavensword replaced all of the hard work/Gil spent on crafting gear with lvl 51.

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Now this is just not true at all. Yes, the gear did get replaced, but the better your gear was at the end of 2.55 the longer it took for a replacement to come up.

Once you hit the top its just a pointless grind for gear that get replaced every patch. the next tombstones that will be in 3.4 and we will repeat the cycle. you could literally come back when they increase the lvl cap to 70 and start from there since lvl 60 with iLVL XXX will be replaced with lvl 61 gear. Just like Heavensword replaced all of the hard work/Gil spent on crafting gear with lvl 51.

the dungeons provide nothing new from lvl 15 dungeon to 60 they're all the same. 3 bosses per dungeon and same trash mobs to kill over and over and over again

I hope 3.4 will bring something new dungeon wise. Maybe some puzzle solving? That random generating dungeon looks good why not bring that to the standard dungeons we have now. Why cant the world have open world dungeons like guild wars 2. where some caves/areas are basically large jumping puzzles. Where you have to reach the top and if you fall down you start all over. Guild wars 2 is huge and has so much to explore it made it fun.

I was hoping Diadem was a open world dungeon to explore, but its just a monster grind fest

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Isn't that entirely so people could practice rotations in a way that both allows you to learn them while giving you a goal towards pushing for? I am thinking the correct thing, right? Are you saying everyone should only learn rotations against end-game things where, depending on the fight, you can't learn it on the fly?

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What goal was that? A false check that isn't viable because there's no mechanics being thrown at you? It's much better for you to actually figure these things out during the fight themselves because that is realistic. Our dummies outside the house were fine variables enough to test our rotations and raise DPS, bring out different points of execution.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Now this is just not true at all. Yes, the gear did get replaced, but the better your gear was at the end of 2.55 the longer it took for a replacement to come up.

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What? Four levels more? That sure didn't take too long to replace your hard worked gear.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I kinda get where you're coming from when I consider running Mhach City 15 times has not rewarded me with a caster body drop even once. 30 hours of my life wasted with no reward. And it's my second week in and it still hasn't dropped.

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same here , i think i played it more than 15 times since the patch and ive never seen the drg body drop at all
why cant we have the token systems in the 24 man raids :confused:

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

It's not even about XI having 14 years of content(that's just story talking by the way. If you even knew how XI gotten past Abyssea, you'd know it went downhill). It's just the fact that Vanadiel was far more immersive because nothing was instant. You had to -WORK- for whatever your goal was. Walking to one place to another. Completing a specific mission. Getting your subjob, etc. Then there was Horizontal Progression which made gear relevant for a Loooooooong time. Even if it wasn't it had updates to make it stay relevant(Dynamis Relics). XIV on its own is just. Unlock Job, Level to max and then...Raid? If you're even into that. Nothing is challenging you anymore other than find 7 other competent players to complete a duty. That Relic you grinded many hours for? Just energy for your next relic step or Glamour!

We get that Yoshi is catering to the louder voice because it's money. It's why we have a Cash Shop. It's why things get nerfed. It's why we have casuals that don't know what rotations are. It's why we have Stone, Sky, Sea. These things could have been learned from out the gate if they actually challenged us out the gate, but they don't. Instead we have to make X player suffer to teach X player how to do what. It's one thing to mentor a newbie, it's another thing to teach someone what to do at level 60.

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Abyssea was like 6 or 7 years into the game. There was QUITE A LOT of stuff introduced from launch till then, so it's not just story. Even if it's faceroll now, it's still stuff you can go do for the hell of it, if you choose to... and believe it or not, people do go to sky still for various reasons, like to level or to spawn the NMs because they happened upon the items through various means. All of the stuff you mentioned was part of its 14 years of content, which while some have gone wayward, like subjob items, the rest of it is still there. Besides that, story is still a significant part of the game... way more than it is in XIV, even though most of it is optional in XI.

Abyssea wasn't that bad, although it did change the game a lot, as far as groups went. They had to start changing the game though, since most people weren't exactly thrilled with the punishing nature and time requirements XI become infamous for. It's just the way the market went. Hence, they evolved to where they are now. Vastly different and very solo heavy, minus the majority of highest tier endgame fights, but still a good game if you like the ease... you just lose a lot of the forced grouping. Truth be told though, with it being this way, it really isn't all that different than any other MMO when playing with others. You gotta go out of your way to meet and befriend people, as they won't magically be friends with you if you don't engage in conversation lol.

Just so you know though, gating us to needing to do something before we can access stuff DOES NOT promote good players. There were tons of terrible players that made it past Maat in XI, and that ****er was hailed as one of the biggest challenges the game offered for a period of time. People choose to be terrible because they're either lazy, ignorant (not a bad word) of what to do, and/or playing in a way that suits them (i.e. wanting to experience something firsthand). No one learns endgame naturally and instantly. Not everyone understands the concept that endgame can change the way you do things (e.g. BRD). Short of them literally making every single obstacle you face in the game be equivalent in difficulty as a Savage mode progression raid, you're not going to only meet great players as you progress... hell, you'd probably not meet enough to make a raid before you'd end up quitting because the game feels "dead" lol. That Savage comment sounds stupid right? Well for what you're saying should be the case, it shouldn't sound stupid, because that's the only way you'll force players to be good when they hit 60 or endgame. If you dumb it down at all, it'll be far more possible for a bad player to slip through the cracks.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

What goal was that? A false check that isn't viable because there's no mechanics being thrown at you? It's much better for you to actually figure these things out during the fight themselves because that is realistic. Our dummies outside the house were fine variables enough to test our rotations and raise DPS, bring out different points of execution.

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Considering I've not bothered with the place myself and don't do high-end raids, my knowledge as a whole of the place is fairly limiting, but the dummies outside the houses do not offer a DPS check like I am aware SSS does.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

What? Four levels more? That sure didn't take too long to replace your hard worked gear.

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Considering the person tried to claim that it was replaced nearly instantly, yes, I am right in calling that out.

Good job forums for showing further proof on how a chunk of people are getting alienated. There was no need to turn this into an argument. More content is more content. You can't say do other stuff to enjoy the game more when all we're hearing are Devs spending "a lot of time" on 3 different sleep poses and housing when we've spent so much time subbed and waiting on new content that we can actually appreciate. Yea more housing, glamour, and poses are cool, but now what? If we don't like where the game is we quit, is basically what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

It's not even about XI having 14 years of content(that's just story talking by the way. If you even knew how XI gotten past Abyssea, you'd know it went downhill). It's just the fact that Vanadiel was far more immersive because nothing was instant. You had to -WORK- for whatever your goal was. Walking to one place to another. Completing a specific mission. Getting your subjob, etc. Then there was Horizontal Progression which made gear relevant for a Loooooooong time. Even if it wasn't it had updates to make it stay relevant(Dynamis Relics). XIV on its own is just. Unlock Job, Level to max and then...Raid? If you're even into that. Nothing is challenging you anymore other than find 7 other competent players to complete a duty. That Relic you grinded many hours for? Just energy for your next relic step or Glamour!

We get that Yoshi is catering to the louder voice because it's money. It's why we have a Cash Shop. It's why things get nerfed. It's why we have casuals that don't know what rotations are. It's why we have Stone, Sky, Sea. These things could have been learned from out the gate if they actually challenged us out the gate, but they don't. Instead we have to make X player suffer to teach X player how to do what. It's one thing to mentor a newbie, it's another thing to teach someone what to do at level 60.

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That was fourteen years ago. The genre has changed. Hence the deviation from systems necessitating months-- even years -- of "work". People, on average, simply will not dedicate that amount of time to one piece of content. Gaming as a whole grew up; where the typical gamer is in their mid twenties and beyond; with commitments outside playing tens of hours a day. Hell, I have all the free time in the world and can say easily I would lose interest almost instantly if I found out the next relic weapon would be a year long grind like the old FFXI ones were. And it isn't because I'm lazy or want instant gratification. Games structured like that bore me. Why would I want to grind a year for one weapon, when I can dedicate that time to another game entirely, and likely get far more enjoyment doing so? Now I know the retort: "the same fights get boring too!" They do sometimes. Which is when I decide to play a different game for a while, or take time away from gaming completely. I also find dungeons and raids last far longer than "grind for this weapon you won't get the results of for a year or longer."

Your posts also comes across disingenuous. How is completing a specific mission or getting your subjob a positive trait of FFXI while you do essentially the same thing in FFXIV, yet you frame that as a negative? Frankly, it sounds as though FFXI caters more to your individual interest. Which is fine. But that doesn't make FFXIV a bad or stale game because you dislike its approach. They are different games, catering to different audiences. When people say "maybe you ought to play something else," it's not intended as an insult. Just this game may not be the one for you.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I think it'd be kind of neat to have armor that can be customized like the anima relics (the i230 stage where you can pick what stats to go in).

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Nice in theory, but here's the issue. Once an optimal set of stats is discovered, you'll be expected to scale to those exact stats or people simply won't take you into raid content. Think of it like Parry right now. Even if it were made into a decent stat, if it isn't as good as Crit and Det, no one will meld it onto their gear. An even better example was STR tanking. It reached a point where you were required to learn how to STR tanking properly for Savage otherwise you wouldn't get a static.

Stat customization tends to fall into an "illusion of choice" category. Even the Anima is guilty of this.

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Originally Posted by Caelum_Dragguell

In response to those saying that what I want caters to 5% of the playerbase, it doesn't. I'm simply asking for a change to itemization stats and gameplay (to a degree). This would mean people could get different gear to suit their own playstyles. This wouldn't change the fact that someone could run most if not all content.

We can have our glamours, we can have our housing, but those things don't carry a game on their own, we just need something fresh to breathe new life into the game. I have faith that if the team actually put their all into this they could design the new itemization in a way that wouldn't exclude players. Horizontal progression means it would be useful to dabble in all content, casual or hardcore making the gear you get from anything more worthwhile and longer lasting.

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Right. But how does that work in FFXIV remains the question. No one has a "play style" as it relates to combat. You follow a set rotation based on your current level, stats and ability to hit buttons. Gear won't alter that in any meaningful way because, as previously stated, people will always look to find the most optimal approach and then expect the community to follow should they want to enter harder content. Look at how Healers who refuse to DPS are immediately deemed "bad" because they're perceived as lazy. This is the inherent problem with horizontal progression. It's an illusion of choice. How many times in FFXI were you considered "stupid" for choosing the wrong sub job for your class?

What your asking for costs money. The devs do not have infinite resources, but are instead allotted a budget to accommodate each patch cycle. If they choose to overhaul aspects of the game as per your suggestion, they simply won't be able to touch other content. Horizontal progression will have little to no impact on the majority of players because they don't need it to clear the content they prefer doing.

And you would be amazed the financial boon glamour brings. Free to Play games exist solely based on people wanting pretty outfits for their characters. In fact, that's why the Sims is so popular. People like playing virtual dress up. :p

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Originally Posted by Razard

No. He wants the developers to make him feel special for pouring "hours into it".

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No one wants to feel their time is wasted. Rather, we want to be rewarded for our spent time. When FFXIV renders everything we've worked for obsolete every few months it feels as though nothing we strive for matters, no goals have lasting benefits for us, so why even set goals? Why strive for anything? Why keep playing?

I agree with the OP, not because I think I'm entitled to something special for having played the game so long (though Veteran rewards were a nice touch, thanks Devs!), but because I have invested in FFXIV and I just want that to mean something.

When I reach a long term goal, like a relic weapon, I want that to mean something. Instead, we literally destroyed our reward when we started the next relic chain. When I spend months collecting enough red scrips to scrap together a set of gear I don't want a patch to come along making that same gear acquirable in a short afternoon.

Vertical progression has some benefits, but those benefits come at the cost of cutting off our legs every other patch.