Should Summoner...

Rose tinted nostalgia seems to rule the image of Summoners.

Summoner design in XI was not the best. Yes you had a variety of summons but really only two of the summons had ability worth burning the 1 min cooldown pact for. I'm talking 75 cap as that was as far as i got in XI. Only carbuncle at the time was a viable pet u could keep out with carby mitts and light staff...the rest had their moment before being sent away...and even then you used titan for stoneskin-ga, Garuda for Predator strikes (hastega was so weak) and the rest...were not that useful except using their en-spellga for lulz.

Summoners in past FF games had other abilites (white magic or black magic usually) to bring utility alongside their summoning because by itself, summoning was a 1 trick pony. You can't simply have summoners in XIV call their primal, do their attack and then just twiddle their thumbs. Since the healing role was taken by SCH, SMN needed something to do...

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Originally Posted by Phileas

Rose tinted nostalgia seems to rule the image of Summoners.

Summoner design in XI was not the best. Yes you had a variety of summons but really only two of the summons had ability worth burning the 1 min cooldown pact for. I'm talking 75 cap as that was as far as i got in XI. Only carbuncle at the time was a viable pet u could keep out with carby mitts and light staff...the rest had their moment before being sent away...and even then you used titan for stoneskin-ga, Garuda for Predator strikes (hastega was so weak) and the rest...were not that useful except using their en-spellga for lulz.Summoners in past FF games had other abilites (white magic or black magic usually) to bring utility alongside their summoning because by itself, summoning was a 1 trick pony. You can't simply have summoners in XIV call their primal, do their attack and then just twiddle their thumbs. Since the healing role was taken by SCH, SMN needed something to do...

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Interesting that you'd post about the FFXI job from level 75... it seems you are assuming nothing has changed since...when in realty, it doesn't play at all as you've described... so you're post in essence has no added value to the discussion. At least understand the current iteration of the FFXI's summoner job before stating your opinion which is filled with erroneous and misleading information.

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Originally Posted by Xiozen

Interesting that you'd post about the FFXI job from level 75... it seems you are assuming nothing has changed since...when in realty, it doesn't play at all as you've described... so you're post in essence has no added value to the discussion. At least understand the current iteration of the FFXI's summoner job before stating your opinion which is filled with erroneous and misleading information.

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Odd because I have similar opinions on the matter and I played to 99 as SMN after I came back to see what was up. Before I came back my choices were Carbuncle and Garuda, after it was Garuda and Shiva and lesser still when I finished my Shiva staff.

While it's not right to speak as if you know whats up when you don't, it's also not cool to try to spin him as wrong when he wasn't. I'd hardly call the vast prime of the games existence and player base to have no value in discussion, especially when it's what most of the people communicating about XI SMN remember, considering most players quit around Abyssea if not sooner.

Summoner should be reworked to be like Yuna in Dissidia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSUlkgS4vO8

Instead of having a separate pet, you have GCD's that summon a Primal for a split second, they do their attack, then vanish. So you swipe your hand on your Gimoire, Shiva appears and does a Heavenly Strike, then vanishes, then your do another GCD, Ifrit comes out and does an Eruption AoE, etc. That's how it SHOULDA been instead of this Egi crap.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Summoner should be reworked to be like Yuna in Dissidia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSUlkgS4vO8

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I remember that. It looked horrid and tacky. The models where half rendered and barely animated.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Odd because I have similar opinions on the matter and I played to 99 as SMN after I came back to see what was up. Before I came back my choices were Carbuncle and Garuda, after it was Garuda and Shiva and lesser still when I finished my Shiva staff.

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If we're using anecdotal experience, at 99 I found consistent use for Ramah, Garuda, Shiva, and Leviathan for different purposes and inconsistent buy non-trivial uses for the remaining primes. Not every avatar was superior DPR, for sure, but the only one's truly trivialized post-75 were arguably just Carby and Fenrir.

Truly optimizing SMN 71-99, also meant keeping avatars out to maximize the inherent TP boost. As for party relevance, FFXI had a sordid history as a whole, this wasn't unique to SMN.

Regardless of someone's opinion on avatars or their place in a party, FFXI did power projection through summons better than 14 and matured the system enough to easily distinguish from being flashy BLMs.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

If we're using anecdotal experience, at 99 I found consistent use for Ramah, Garuda, Shiva, and Leviathan for different purposes and inconsistent buy non-trivial uses for the remaining primes. Not every avatar was superior DPR, for sure, but the only one's truly trivialized post-75 were arguably just Carby and Fenrir.

Truly optimizing SMN 71-99, also meant keeping avatars out to maximize the inherent TP boost. As for party relevance, FFXI had a sordid history as a whole, this wasn't unique to SMN.

Regardless of someone's opinion on avatars or their place in a party, FFXI did power projection through summons better than 14 and matured the system enough to easily distinguish from being flashy BLMs.

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It's not anecdotal. It was well known information that Shiva and Garuda would be there for 95% of your content, I was simply making a point that I was falling in line to what every other summoner who spent a moment researching the class at that point in time. You were plain and simply not doing a simple thing to do as well as you could. The other 5% would be leaving Abyssea areas and not having permanence due to your Atma. If you read above, I specifically stated that the class was enjoyable but... heavily flawed and should not be used as an example of a proper full summoner pet system, because replacing a flawed system with a flawed system with the knowledge that you're implementing a flawed idea is silly and circular in logic.

So we agree for the most part, I'm simply trying to be against pushing to have copy/pasting 11 onto 14 and assuming that we'll have this timeless modern game, because it won't. The idea that "it worked in XI so why don't they do in in XIV?" is asinine at best, because the games are hardly comparable.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

It's not anecdotal. It was well known information that Shiva and Garuda would be there for 95% of your content, I was simply making a point that I was falling in line to what every other summoner who spent a moment researching the class at that point in time. You were plain and simply not doing a simple thing to do as well as you could. The other 5% would be leaving Abyssea areas and not having permanence due to your Atma. If you read above, I specifically stated that the class was enjoyable but... heavily flawed and should not be used as an example of a proper full summoner pet system, because replacing a flawed system with a flawed system with the knowledge that you're implementing a flawed idea is silly and circular in logic.

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This is what anecdotal means. It's made up figures based on your experience. My experience is also anecdotal but it's enough as it's the opposite. I routinely rotated 4-5 summons (a differing subset as the game evolved) and utilized persistent pets in and out of Abyssea and 71-99. Flawed maybe, but heavily is an exaggeration.

Re-implementing 11 is obviously not going to happen, the game was flawed as a whole. But there are still good lessons learned to take from it and power projection through summons is one of them.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

This is what anecdotal means. It's made up figures based on your experience. My experience is also anecdotal but it's enough as it's the opposite. I routinely rotated 4-5 summons (a differing subset as the game evolved) and utilized persistent pets in and out of Abyssea and 71-99. Flawed maybe, but heavily is an exaggeration.

Re-implementing 11 is obviously not going to happen, the game was flawed as a whole. But there are still good lessons learned to take from it and power projection through summons is one of them.

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Anecdotal is a personal experience shared. Mine was well researched at the time so it was hardly a lonesome experience. That's like saying the proper MCH standard burst opener is anecdotal if I shared it with you because I learned it from other sources. There WAS a proper way to play SMN, that's not anecdotal, no matter how many summons you chose to use at the expense of doing better. People had/have numbers. Numbers ain't anecdotal.

On topic though! I feel like simply making the pet system more responsive with upwards of 50% the duo's total damage being the pet along with possibly some skills being adopted/rethought onto the pet would create a better Summoner fantasy for many players. A class that uses pets should feel like their pet is their equal, if not more powerful and currently that isn't being met, but how do you appease the people who play summoner and enjoy the powerful DoT element it gives them currently?

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

There WAS a proper way to play SMN, that's not anecdotal, no matter how many summons you chose to use at the expense of doing better.

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Subtle, unfounded, and unnecessary.

I have no doubt a majority of players played SMN that way, it's easier, simple. That doesn't mean that was best utilizing your avatars, and there are still good lessons learned about the way 11 SMN could be and was played (my experience wasn't unique either).