DRG should have a special quest called "how to use heavy thrust"

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

I never said offering advise made you an elitist. It's when it's said in a snobby way which I've seen in the past or kicking someone for not playing to your standards that does. Personally I don't mind if someone sees a way I can tweak what I'm doing and let's me know as long as it's done respectfully.

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And you're perfectly fine with people that sandbag themselves to the detriment of your party? Because your reply is to a quote in response to that.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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"I have other skills on my bar that suit me better. Don't tell me how to play my Job."

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Kick them, all of them. Let's raise the bar, I'm sick of this behaviour and the people that get behind it. This isn't about time spent, this is about how frustrating it is altogether. These people then get carried through content, and we suffer their presence in farming parties.

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I personally get frustrated when people choose not to put effort into playing their class in a party setting, espesically if it is out of laziness because at that point, you're not giving any shites to the other 3-7 people's times.

You never know if it's out of laziness. In the above case it is but it won't always be. For example I try to keep up on HT but sometimes I get focused on the fight itself and overlook the timer. I also choose to try to hold onto BotD until boss battles because I feel it's more important to have the for the start of the fight then having to wait for the cooldown timer because I wasted it on a trash mob

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

What is wrong is kicking people just because they're not using a skill you feel they should use. That's what I take issue with.

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I strongly disagree. I feel that the community needs to have some sort of accountability for being woefully trash at your Job. I don't mean "doing low dps because of sub-optimal cooldown/rotations" - I mean "ignoring the base mechanics of your Job." A Summoner using no DoT spells, a Dragoon ignoring Heavy Thrust, a Ninja using 0 Ninjutsu - these are all scenarios I have encountered in duty finder dungeon runs at level 60.

At the same time, I have also encountered tanks who mass pull and pop not a single cooldown and then bitch me out as the healer for not keeping them alive. I've also encountered a healer who did literally 0 dps and forced me to pull one group at a time with cooldowns because they couldn't keep me up, despite being overgeared.

So, yeah. I do not believe it is wrong to kick a player who is drastically under-performing. I would never kick someone on the basis of a parse number, since that's bull. I WOULD, however, like to feel that I could kick a Black Mage who doesn't use Enochian at 60 without having people like you reporting my ass for "elitism" when I just want people to at least play their job correctly, whether or not that means they're gonna pull 1300-1400 dps.

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Originally Posted by whythehate

Sadly even using it some drgs fail, being out dpsed by an under geared min level entry pld in brayflox nm...while he's capped >.>

Well all dps fail :3 I have to say running a parser has certainly opened my eyes :o

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I honestly have no problem with players who are still learning and struggling to figure out how things work. I've offered advice to people in df before and received positive replies. What really annoys me is when I see someone ignoring the base mechanics of their class and then, when I offer friendly advice, I'm told that they know what they're doing. I'm not [insert class here], despite having it at 60.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I personally get frustrated when people choose not to put effort into playing their class in a party setting, espesically if it is out of laziness because at that point, you're not giving any shites to the other 3-7 people's times.

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I'm not super bothered by the fact of time. Dungeons in general are a waste of time - they take 20+ minutes to complete in DF, and I often will budget myself 40+ minutes to clear it (including queue time). If someone is a little slow on dps, I don't care. I play my Job to the best of my ability (and usually try and bring a friend with me to make sure half the party is competent, at least) and so it doesn't really bother me if it goes a little slow.

I mostly only get pissy and upset if I see - for example - 0 uses of Goring Blade or Royal Authority out of my Paladin. Or this other time that I had a Warrior who used Maim exactly once on each boss and never anywhere else. Or a White Mage who runs in circles casting the odd heal spell during trash pulls without ever even dropping an Assize or swift A3.

This is people ignoring the base mechanics of their Job, and I don't feel it's right that the game is designed in such a way that we are encouraged not to tell them to get better, because we might be reported for harassment.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

You never know if it's out of laziness. In the above case it is but it won't always be. For example I try to keep up on HT but sometimes I get focused on the fight itself and overlook the timer. I also choose to try to hold onto BotD until boss battles because I feel it's more important to have the for the start of the fight then having to wait for the cooldown timer because I wasted it on a trash mob

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Neither of these things should be an issue. The Dragoon rotation is static and unchanging on every boss in every dungeon in the game, and BotD is a 60s cooldown - you can use it for every trash pull and have it up for the boss so long as you don't re-pop it at the end of the pull. The only exception is when you have a stellar partner dps, OP healer dps, and a DRK/WAR doing good dps to kill a trash pack in less than 60s - a feat that's rarely ever accomplished in DF.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Kick them, all of them. Let's raise the bar, I'm sick of this behaviour and the people that get behind it. This isn't about time spent, this is about how frustrating it is altogether. These people then get carried through content, and we suffer their presence in farming parties.

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Preach it! My wife and me (usually playing tank+healer or healer+DPS in our daily ex-roulettes) are seriously sick and tired of carrying braindead/lazy DPS players every single goddamn day. We either make use of our damned 4 hour vote dismissals whenever possible or put in as much effort as the DPS are. i.e. i210+ DRG not using heavy thrust, BotD or any kind of AoE and autoattacking on bosses? I do an unchained+berserk rotation on bosses and go make lunch/dinner, while she uses an AFK healing macro.

Seriously, everyone. Stop carrying people like this through dungeons. Kick them. Tell them to stop slacking/afk, or just stop putting in any effort yourself when you see shit like that.

I also like the "argument" many idiots on this forum like to bring up how low/bad dps "only makes a dungeon take 2-3 minutes longer". Wrong. Almost every dungeon run we do, we both are the first and second DPS(as healer and nerfed tank).

Let's say the average lazy/slacker/terrible DPS player has 600 DPS on single target. Both of us are generally around 900-1000 on bossfights. A slacker/bad tank puts out like 300 DPS. A bad healer puts out 0 DPS. This already makes bossfights take almost 3 times as long as normally. 20 minute runs become 40-50 minute slog-fests, believe it or not, if you get unlucky and don't decide to carry the rest of the team.

The problem has been, since I only really use DF, that if I use BotD on a trash mob towards the end of a section it expire and is still cooling down from the time between the kill of that mob and party ready and engaging boss. I would end up with around 30sec left before I can use it again

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

You never know if it's out of laziness. In the above case it is but it won't always be. For example I try to keep up on HT but sometimes I get focused on the fight itself and overlook the timer. I also choose to try to hold onto BotD until boss battles because I feel it's more important to have the for the start of the fight then having to wait for the cooldown timer because I wasted it on a trash mob

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Your example is entirely different from not using HT at all, and the best reason you can come up with is "I choose not to", which can be out of laziness, spite, or preference, al o f which still comes to the detriment of the party if you aren't performing the role that you're in the party for. Ignorance I can excuse, willful ignorance is a different story.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

The problem has been, since I only really use DF, that if I use BotD on a trash mob towards the end of a section it expire and is still cooling down from the time between the kill of that mob and party ready and engaging boss. I would end up with around 30sec left before I can use it again

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Again, the examples that you're giving doesn't match up the context and perspective of what we're talking about. In our case, we're referring to players who don't touch BotD (or HT) at all for the entire course of a dungeon. I'm not going to kick people or get pissy over them dropping enochian or not keeping full uptime on BotD, but I'm going to take offense if you expect me to carry your dps because you can't be bothered to maintain HT or use any of oyur post-50 skills (which often equates to you doing less than a tank in tank stance)

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I'm not super bothered by the fact of time. Dungeons in general are a waste of time - they take 20+ minutes to complete in DF, and I often will budget myself 40+ minutes to clear it (including queue time). If someone is a little slow on dps, I don't care. I play my Job to the best of my ability (and usually try and bring a friend with me to make sure half the party is competent, at least) and so it doesn't really bother me if it goes a little slow.

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It's less about the time and more on the principle behind it. No one likes it when someone is slacking off when it comes to a collaboration or project, and party play in an MMO is no different. Doubly the case when it goes hand in hand (and it often does) with your below statement.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I mostly only get pissy and upset if I see - for example - 0 uses of Goring Blade or Royal Authority out of my Paladin. Or this other time that I had a Warrior who used Maim exactly once on each boss and never anywhere else. Or a White Mage who runs in circles casting the odd heal spell during trash pulls without ever even dropping an Assize or swift A3.

This is people ignoring the base mechanics of their Job, and I don't feel it's right that the game is designed in such a way that we are encouraged not to tell them to get better, because we might be reported for harassment..

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That was a response to the normal person that was talking to me mr. Snob. Bad attitude btw

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

I never said offering advise made you an elitist. It's when it's said in a snobby way which I've seen in the past or kicking someone for not playing to your standards that does. Personally I don't mind if someone sees a way I can tweak what I'm doing and let's me know as long as it's done respectfully. I would never use the classes I'm working on" just because" on big raids. I play mainly as a Dragoon btw.

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It's not a matter of standards. It's a matter of these people not even performing the most basic job mechanics. Even when I'm leveling a class I'm playing "just because" (i.e. because I want all jobs at 60) I make sure I know the basic rotation so I can at least function semi-effectively in dungeons should I choose to venture there. Don't get me wrong, I drop Enochian and BotD like they're going out of style, but hey I'm at least trying. That's worlds of difference from not even using HT. I don't get people that want to go on a class they have no idea how to play, basically fall over themselves the entire dungeon and scream at anyone that tries to give advice. The worst part is, they're forcibly dragging three other people down with them. It's disrespectful of the party's time and I think people that refuse to perform basic job mechanics should be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

Well PS4 players don't have the luxury of cheating. We have to do everything the old fashion way. We don't get to have computers play for us

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What are you even talking about here? I'm confused because you didn't quote anything for context. If you think parsers "play the game for you" you're sadly mistaken as to what their actual function is. In any case, that isn't even the subject of the thread.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

That was a response to the normal person that was talking to me mr. Snob. Bad attitude btw

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I see we have someone who doesnt actually read the responses here.

They are NOT saying kick someone for not using HT. They are saying kick them when they are complete asshats in response and absolutely refuse to use BASIC MECHANICS of their job

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

The problem has been, since I only really use DF, that if I use BotD on a trash mob towards the end of a section it expire and is still cooling down from the time between the kill of that mob and party ready and engaging boss. I would end up with around 30sec left before I can use it again

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The problem is that you called me, and by extension, everyone who thinks alike, the problem of this game. And no, we are not. By doing this, you're excusing them and encouraging them to keep doing, or not doing, whatever they are or they aren't doing. Because of these people is why we can't have a somewhat deep game and piss easy dungeons at their release. They level by spamming FATEs? That's on them, that's no excuse to me or to anyone else in the party. They get carried so they get into farming parties? Likewise.

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Originally Posted by Zari

I see we have someone who doesnt actually read the responses here.

They are NOT saying kick someone for not using HT. They are saying kick them when they are complete asshats in response and absolutely refuse to use BASIC MECHANICS of their job

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He doesn't want to understand this on purpose.