What is so bad about FFXI?

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Exactly, which is why when XIV was rolling around, people figured they'd learn from those mistakes and build off of the good they produced, not make even worse mistakes in some instances.

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This. There is no reason to use the GOOD ideas that came from FFXI and improve it in FFXIV.

Key examples of what is good in FFXI:

*Assaults
*Party Search Feature (which is finally coming)
*Campaign/Beseiged
*Endgames that required specific strategy, such as salvage, minus the crappy drop rate.
*Innovative NM fights. (Ifrit is by far a great example of this)
*Bazaar including bazaar message.
*ARena style fights, such as BCNM, KSNM and so on.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Yes you do thats why most people hated XIII cause it wasn't the same game >.>

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In technically, it kind of is. >.>

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

I love XIII -_-;

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I loved it too see my sig lol its just people really do want the same game over and over.

The words FFXI aren't taboo.

But using FFXI as a reference point for every idea just makes you look unworldly and set-in-your-ways. If it's convenient to use FFXI as an example of how something "should be done" then go right ahead, but it's better to discuss the concept in isolation without drawing inspiration from other sources. It comes across as lacking imagination/independent thought to go about referencing other games too much.

I would suggest trying to limit discussions to the concept rather than the technical implementation of the thing.

If you want to talk about non-instanced zones or something, then talk about that, but don't go on and on about Sarutabaruta or some *** like you never got over FFXI. (This is just general advice.)

The take home message being: there is a time and place to reference other games, and sometimes it's convenient to do so, but FFXI wasn't a perfect game (basically just an everquest clone with better atmosphere), so you injure your argument/discussion by clinging to FFXI as proof that your idea should have merit.

I liked FFXI but only around 50% of it. The other 50% was seriously flawed.

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

The words FFXI aren't taboo.

But using FFXI as a reference point for every idea just makes you look unworldly and set-in-your-ways. If it's convenient to use FFXI as an example of how something "should be done" then go right ahead, but it's better to discuss the concept in isolation without drawing inspiration from other sources.

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So, being Final Fantasy XI, an MMORPG made by Square Enix which had almost the same general development team, including directional leads of the previous one isn't one of the 'best" reference sources to use? Even FFII built off of the basics FFI laid and did something new (the battle system we all ABSOLUTELY LOVED! (Sarcasm btw.))

This is why people reference FFXI, because they took a lot of steps backwards from XI instead of taking the logical steps forward. Search system for example, they could have easily taken the search system from XI and built the Recruit system around it, we'd have an easier lfg system as well as a recruit system.

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but FFXI wasn't a perfect game

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No MMORPG was a perfect game, but people will easily deny that it did anything right. Also:

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basically just an everquest clone with better atmosphere

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In 2001, Tanaka stated he was inspired by Everquest and used Final Fantasy III (or V) as a base for the world, so yeah, it is a clone, but it's a Final Fantasy based clone, which is why when XIV rolled around, people reference XI because realistically, comparing the two, they should have left XIV as 'Rapture', since the namesake of Final Fantasy generally makes people expect certain things to be in line, which Final Fantasy XI did a good job at bringing in a lot of Final Fantasy aspects.

Much like when I played World of Warcraft, I expected quite a bit of Warcraft lore and feeling.

*raises her hand* I've made quite of few posts in the vein of 'I don't want FFXIV to be FFXI-2.

But it's not limited to just FFXI. I don't want FFXIV to be a copy of anything else we have in the genre. Simply put, you can't lead the genre if you're always copying someone else. The only reason WoW got away it was because A) they brought a level of polish and completion that wasn't in the genre prior to its launch and B) there wasn't nearly as much competition as there is now.

If you go to any MMORPG-focused site, the number of WoW clones is staggering. There are literally dozens. But not one of them, even the frontrunner of them, Rift, has had more than a small portion of their success. Why? Simple - why play a knockoff when you can play the real deal? Even if many players don't realize it, that's the crux of the matter.

While learning from other titles is fine, if you're just doing the same thing but with a different face it leaves you with no capacity to pull away from the other titles that you're competing with. I want to see FFXIV innovate instead of implement.

Bring back the crafting system from XI. It's the only crafting system of any MMO to trump XIV in god awfulness.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

While learning from other titles is fine, if you're just doing the same thing but with a different face it leaves you with no capacity to pull away from the other titles that you're competing with. I want to see FFXIV innovate instead of implement.

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That's kind of what they where trying to do in the first place.
It didn't go over so well.

I don't think anyone's saying to make XIV XI-2. They just want it to take all the good stuff from XI because it made for a great experience.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I don't think anyone's saying to make XIV XI-2. They just want it to take all the good stuff from XI because it made for a great experience.

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yep, no one ever says make XIV an XI-2, but what they did try to innovate, they could have while using the base foundation of XI, that way if the innovations didn't go over well..they'd have a good foundation to just optimize and make better, instead of falling flat and having to scrap it and rebuild it.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

So, being Final Fantasy XI, an MMORPG made by Square Enix which had almost the same general development team, including directional leads of the previous one isn't one of the 'best" reference sources to use? Even FFII built off of the basics FFI laid and did something new (the battle system we all ABSOLUTELY LOVED! (Sarcasm btw.))

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Somebody clearly understood what I was saying (sarcasm btw).

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This is why people reference FFXI, because they took a lot of steps backwards from XI instead of taking the logical steps forward. Search system for example, they could have easily taken the search system from XI and built the Recruit system around it, we'd have an easier lfg system as well as a recruit system.

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FFXIV took some step backwards from FFXI but it also cannot keep making steps backward to FFXI, and that's generally what people like myself are afraid of. FFXIV has made some strides and progress in the industry (and many of those are due to deviating from FFXI) and I don't want to see FFXIV moonwalk back to the dinosaur era, erasing all the progress they've already made.

FFXI had a better search feature, granted, and so maybe in the future you should limit yourself to making the suggestion that FFXIV implement a search feature with "x, y, z elements" because of "a,b,c reasons".

Just flat-out saying "ffxi was better than FFXIV and therefore FFXIV should be like FFXI every way" is what myself and others like me cannot stomach. We don't want the game to revert back to the FFXI standard, because despite what some might say, FFXIV made many steps forward, even though it did take a few steps backwards too (the search feature being one such backward step).

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In 2001, Tanaka stated he was inspired by Everquest and used Final Fantasy III (or V) as a base for the world, so yeah, it is a clone, but it's a Final Fantasy based clone, which is why when XIV rolled around, people reference XI because realistically, comparing the two, they should have left XIV as 'Rapture', since the namesake of Final Fantasy generally makes people expect certain things to be in line, which Final Fantasy XI did a good job at bringing in a lot of Final Fantasy aspects.

Much like when I played World of Warcraft, I expected quite a bit of Warcraft lore and feeling.

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You were actually kind of starting to make sense until you launched into this tirade about what "Final fantasy should be" like you're the boss of Final Fantasy. I think if anyone gets to decide what final fantasy can and should be it's Tanaka or anyone else at SE.

One might expect certain things of a FF game, but one also expects the unexpected from a FF game. So I'm sorry if it deviated too far from your safety zone but artists need to keep things fresh.