Does Tank Stance mean you're "bad?"

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

The only time having tank stance on = bad is when you don't have aggro on something. Kinda self explanatory. Having it on while actively tanking is at worst "suboptimal" or "overly cautious" depending on context, and definitely does not graduate to "bad" by any yardstick.

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Word. Fights like on Stone Vigil Hard at the final boss pair that have no aggro table, or during Chariberts charge up in the Vault where you have to kill the flame orbs - Those are where the tank stance is optional.

When tanking in VA I watch the other two tanks if one of them has their tank stance on I use deliverance and let them MT. If they have issues holding hate I take it and switch on defiance if I can see my healers are doing find I drop into deliverance. There is no hard rule on stances its adapting. If you can't keep hate use tank stance if the heals are struggling tank stance. If everything is peachy go ahead and dps done more, people being inflammatory is often in my experience ignorance, example did that bard use quelling? No? Well that is pushing their luck, tanks can still keep hate and should but to make the run smoother all the bard needed to do was press one more button. ;) Both healers and tanks are easy to call out for "mistakes" because you it's obvious but everyone messes up so just give each other a little slack. :)

i tell why you should use tank stance to pull aggro before switch to dps,
but all the response after is correct. you should know when to swap on dps stance, how to use CD to make this healable.
Any tank using Dps stance without care of this is bad also ^^.
what the OP said : the tank was bad because he swap to tank stance to get the aggro again: it's what all the tank losing aggro on dps stance would do.
swap again in tank stance, and then provoke ect... it need to be a fast reaction for any tank swaping in dps stance.

I think people are taking tank dps a bit too literally. All you need to do to hold hate is start the pull in tank stance, perform 1-2 hate combos depending on your gear, and then switch to dps stance until you need to establish more hate/mitigate a large tankbuster. It's not terribly complicated at all and if you're pulling good dps you can typically remain in dps stance until the end of the fight

Problem with tanking in raids(That i have)

When ever i'm MT i find it hard to go into my OT stance to DPS since often the other tanks do not do this.
When someone takes the lead and wants to MT i directly change to my DMG stance to DPS more. my tank stance becomes useless and is only getting me behind on what i could do when i do not have to tank.

That's why the concept of two tanks sucks.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

I think people are taking tank dps a bit too literally. All you need to do to hold hate is start the pull in tank stance, perform 1-2 hate combos depending on your gear, and then switch to dps stance until you need to establish more hate/mitigate a large tankbuster. It's not terribly complicated at all and if you're pulling good dps you can typically remain in dps stance until the end of the fight

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Uhm.. No.. Staying in dps stance longer than say vengeance.. Is just taxing the healer. but hey do what you want.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

That's why the concept of two tanks sucks.

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The concept of two tanks is fine. There are a large amount of fights that don't take advantage of it, but if you look at something like SCoB Savage or the current AS floors then you'll see that both tanks contribute something to the overall fight equally. I think the best example of a really well designed 2 tank fight is T12, so think on that if you want to see how a 2 tank comp works well if properly designed.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Uhm.. No.. Staying in dps stance longer than say vengeance.. Is just taxing the healer. but hey do what you want.

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This largely depends on tank damage intake/party damage intake. If the numbers on both are low (they usually are in 3.0) then it only "taxes" them slightly and increases overall damage by a lot, especially if your healer isn't in Cleric regardless. Stance dancing isn't for everyone and I certainly don't think you need to do it in Void Ark of all places, but it will increase overall DPS and make the fight shorter thus resulting in fewer potential disasters. As long as the OTs are in DPS stance, I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

That's why the concept of two tanks sucks.

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I actually love a well designed swap mechanic. T10 and T12 could be cheesed, but T11 was pretty good. So was Ultima HM. I really enjoy fights where I get to coordinate and work in tandem with another tank; the problem is the whole coordination thing.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Uhm.. No.. Staying in dps stance longer than say vengeance.. Is just taxing the healer. but hey do what you want.

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Honestly, as Scholar I spend the majority of my time in Cleric Stance anyway. Most of our content is an utter snoozefest to heal unless your tank is undergeared and doing massive pulls. Disclaimer: I don't heal Savage (I tank it), but I have healed all other endgame content including EX primals (aside from Thordan) and Coil up through T13. About the only thing I don't really pop into CS much for is A4 in Duty Finder because I soak orbs by my lonesome a lot and there's just too much stupid for people to stand in. Seriously though, I'd probably fall asleep in dungeons if I wasn't DPS'ing. As long as a tank is 1) keeping hate and 2) using cooldowns appropriately, they can stay in DPS stance till the cows come home as far as I'm concerned. I tend to run with Eos specifically so that I can spend more time in Cleric Stance (Fey Wind doesn't do much good when you're in a 4 man and stuck with awful DPS players).

Some healers aren't comfortable DPS'ing, and that's fine. Some healers dislike seeing a tank in DPS stance, and that's a little more of a sticking point with me because that's trying to dictate my playstyle rather than your own. If they're truly struggling keeping me standing for whatever reason (lack of gear, dps standing in the stupids, etc), I'll use my tank stance because ultimately the goal is to clear the content. If they're throwing a pissy fit about it and threatening to not heal even though everything is going fine except for the fact that they aren't getting their way (seriously, I've run into this once or twice), I'll just replace them.

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Originally Posted by Ironos

Just had a VA run where on the last boss a BRD pulled and none of the tanks (I was SMN at the time) could pull aggro off the DPS and Echidna just bounced around everywhere. One of the DPS yells at the tanks, calling them a number of slurs as well as being bad. I notice one of the DRKs turns on Grit and maintains aggro for the rest of the fight. Then at the end of the fight one of the healers says that Tank was "bad" for having to use tank stance to build aggro. Now, I'm not sure about gear discrepancies, but I do know the DRK was using the 180 upgraded law weapon, and most of the DPS that I saw had their 200 weapons.

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Sounds like the tanks didn't want to tank. They're bad and weren't doing their jobs.
A good tank maximizes damage output while still tanking (i.e. Maintaining aggro, popping cooldowns/timed stance changes to ensure survivability...etc.).
A bad tank thinks they're a DPS job.

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Originally Posted by Ironos

Anyway, got a bit off topic there, does using tank stance to (at the very least) build aggro at the start and then turning it off if you want/need to dps more really mean a tank is "bad?" I just find it kind of backwards that a tank using tank stance is apparently being bad.

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Your idea of how tank stances should be used is correct.