Glamour is a worthwile incentive. Have you seen the explosive threads about defining what is and isn't endgame content? People PVP for content-appropriate gear, titles and mounts and glamours. They raid for similar rewards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Or it's people not wanting to see PVE content gated behind PVP. Look at the legendary cloak in WoW or the holiday achieves in WoW. They were miserable not just for the PVE players, but for the PVP players who had to deal with their battlegrounds being overrun by people who really didn't want to be there.Quote:
It's just people being selfish and entitled.
how is that reward any different than what the raiders are getting? I think the thing people don't want to happen is to have the BiS piece for PVE gated behind PVP. The same would apply in reverse.Quote:
When I see raiders clear raid content and sell it, I don't think it's unfair that I can't do the same. They devoted the effort and time, they deserve a reward. In the meanwhile, my life will go on just fine. If people are participating in and winning in PvP, I want to see them rewarded properly. Giving them a mount, a minion, some crappy glamour gear, and a slap on the back is not enough to foster a thriving PvP community.
This was blizzard's approach and it was terrible for everyone but the gankers. They still have this mindset that people who don't like pvp must just "not get it and if we keep trying, eventually they come around". No. Not everyone does. SE has it right, PVP players can have their content, the bleeding edge raiders can have theirs and the mega crafters can have theirs and nobody has to do content they don't care about to advance.Quote:
I find it utterly deplorable that people constantly segregate elements of the gaming experience when it should be a holistic experience. If you don't want to PvP, then don't PvP. Don't begrudge the people that do want to PvP by taking away any relevant rewards and then forcing them into their own little quarantine zone so that they don't offend you or impact your world in any way.
Open World PvP area for faction control.
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10-06-2015, 01:27 PMTeryaani
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10-06-2015, 02:51 PMBrian_Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryaani
It's not enough and it's bad that it's not any different than what raiders are getting. Are you just totally blind to how badly this game is bleeding raiders?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teryaani
I have had hundreds of friends / LS members / static / FC members quit this game because they didn't feel like there was any point to raiding. The mid-core raider is basically extinct.
Savage is the same exact story as normal. It's the same exact enemies and environments as normal. The loot is recolored normal loot. Why bother? This is what happens when you do not properly reward people.
And people do the exact same thing to PvP and wonder why only a small minority even bother.
In 2.X, raiders had their own exclusive game experience. That's what you call proper incentives.
I loved PvP in WoW (Vanilla~BC). I spent a ton of time PvPing whether it was BGs, arena, or open world PvP. I barely touch PvP in this game.
In WoW, I got relevant gear from PvP. Whether it be for PvP itself or even for PvE content, the gear was useful. The gear helped me survive on a PvP server. The PvP gear in this game is purely for glamour. At the time, I was also in a hard-core PvE progression guild. Did the PvE raiders care about PvP in any way? Nope. Did they begrudge the fact that the PvP gear was also really good for PvE sometimes? Nope. They had their PvE options and were fine with them. Most complaints were about how PvE balance was impacted by PvP balance. This game won't have that issue because one of the few things they really did right was incorporate separate PvP skills to balance PvP.
Why people here want to take options away from people out of jealously, selfishness, and shortsightedness is saddening. Other people being rewarded for enjoying the game the way they want to takes nothing away from your experience. -
10-06-2015, 03:26 PMTeryaaniThe game is in mid patch lull. Just like what happens in every vertical MMO in between major patches. The sky isn't falling no matter how many times you repeat that it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Exaggeration isn't going to help your argument.Quote:
I have had hundreds of friends / LS members / static / FC members quit this game because they didn't feel like there was any point to raiding. The mid-core raider is basically extinct.
So you want to do away the LFR story mode that exists now? You said earlier that you wanted this hollistic and blended. Make up your mind.Quote:
In 2.X, raiders had their own exclusive game experience. That's what you call proper incentives.
In earlier (cata and back) you had to have PVP gear to survive pvp anything. Without resilience you were a dead man walking. It also was near useless in PVE content because it sacrificed a stat for resilience. So of course raiders didn't give a used fig about pvp gear. It's worth noting that most pvp sets in WoW are, like they are here, for glamour.Quote:
In WoW, I got relevant gear from PvP. Whether it be for PvP itself or even for PvE content, the gear was useful. The gear helped me survive on a PvP server. The PvP gear in this game is purely for glamour. At the time, I was also in a hard-core PvE progression guild. Did the PvE raiders care about PvP in any way? Nope. Did they begrudge the fact that the PvP gear was also really good for PvE sometimes? Nope. They had their PvE options and were fine with them. Most complaints were about how PvE balance was impacted by PvP balance. This game won't have that issue because one of the few things they really did right was incorporate separate PvP skills to balance PvP.
You said above that you wanted raiders to have an exclusive experience or it bleeds players. I'll say it again, make up your mind.Quote:
Why people here want to take options away from people out of jealously, selfishness, and shortsightedness is saddening. Other people being rewarded for enjoying the game the way they want to takes nothing away from your experience.
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10-06-2015, 04:23 PMBrian_
I'm not exaggerating. The first static / FC I was in had 6/8 + 2 reserves of the static quit the game shortly after Savage was released. 2 statics from my old FC collapsed after the majority of their members all quit raiding / the game. I scan through my raiding LSes and it's just one (Deleted) after another. A lot of of the statics that I trialed for are still recruiting because they're bleeding members. I routinely get PMs to sub for groups because someone quit and they haven't had time to find a replacement / still can't find a replacement after weeks. 1 chest, no chests, they don't care. They're that desperate. 3.1 is not going to change this reality because it's not like these statics are being formed for void ark / airships. They're being formed for Alex Savage.
I said that the experience should be holistic. I never said that it was. It wasn't in 2.X. It's even worse in 3.X. I don't need to make up my mind about it.
When I refer to holistic, I mean this -- in 2.X, you had a better path of progression that transitioned into Coil. You had casual raiding content with CT, intermediate raid content with EX Primals, an unfortunate gap until Coil, and then Savage. You had incentives to push people up the ladder. The experience was interconnected and progressive. And, the rewards were more relevant. They actually explained how Coil fit into the overall story. In 3.X, the gap between casual and HC is massive. Something like 80% of the HW cleared playerbase has beaten Alex NM. A tiny fraction of that has even gotten past A2S. There is no bridge. There is too little incentive.
Once upon a time, the developers of this game said that an idea integral to FFXIV's design was attracting new MMO players and converting them into core MMO gamers. That idea has been completely lost in HW.
And, it's also completely lost in PvP. The only thing that pushes people to PvP is the easy esoterics. The high rank PvP gear is a massive grind that will turn away anyone but devout PvPers and the old PvP gear is a joke to obtain now. How is that healthy? It's no wonder no one gives a crap about PvP.
SE is apparently perfectly fine with their different user types sticking to their own little worlds instead of combining to create the thing that defines MMOs, large, cohesive, integrated worlds. -
10-06-2015, 05:13 PMRyniaThe problem here is that people who truly enjoy PvP and people who much prefer PvE really don't mesh well. Any time I've seen PvP pushed on to a predominantly PvE crowd, it's gone very poorly for that MMO. I used to play one where the only viable method of grinding once you ran out of quests was a PvPvE zone much like you want airships to be, and frankly it was a horrific mess of spawncampers, twinks and harrassment. These zones always are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
I imagine PvPers will disagree with me here, but as a whole the people who enjoy PvP tend towards competitiveness, which often leads to aggressiveness, rudeness and lack of tolerance for the less skilled. As someone else said further upthread, putting "relevant" rewards into PvP will just drive people who don't want to be there into PvP, which in my experience as someone who occasionally grinds PvP for the achievements doesn't go over very well. Forcing people into PvP zones for rewards does get people in there, yes. But with the amount I already see PvPers crying about eso farmers in Frontlines, I really think it would just serve to annoy people who actually want to PvP because they enjoy it.
It might surprise you, but a very large majority of this game's playerbase wouldn't touch PvP with a bargepole. In fact it baffles me that PvPers often ask for their niche activity to be forced on other people. Why would you want people playing your favourite game mode if they hate it? -
10-06-2015, 05:31 PMBrian_
If they have relevant PvP exclusive rewards that you want, then yea, should need to PvP to get them. Otherwise, why would you PvP at all?
The current trend of this game is -- you see a reward you want? It's okay, you don't have to invest yourself to get it. Eventually, we will just give it to you. That's not right.
Even if you locked certain nodes in instance PvP zones, so what? So they sell the materials on the MB and you buy them. It's just as gated as 3 star gathering materials. You aren't forced to PvP to get them. You could spend the time you would need to commit to PvP and use it to make enough gil to buy the item off the MB. It gives different people their desired way to enjoy the game. If you don't want to work for the item at all, then you don't deserve it.
When I first started playing MMOs 10+ years ago, I was not a PvPer. Quite frankly, the anxiety, pressure, and toxicity made it hard to enjoy. But, the more I was thrown in PvP situations, the more I grew to enjoy the rush, the competitiveness, the process of learning. I think a lot of people are inherently afraid of trying things out. This is part of the issue with having a proper path of progression to give them a chance to experience your game in its entirety.
A lot of PvPers want PvP to be a bigger thing because that means it'll be a higher priority for development rather than an afterthought. The game has a lot of potential for good PvP. It will never reach said potential if developers don't feel like it's worth their time to develop. -
10-06-2015, 08:54 PMGilraenYou want people to get into PvP but seem to think exposure is enough to get that ball rolling. Exposure is only just that, exposure. If there's already a firmly seated dislike for something all exposure will do is further cement that dislike, possibly even turn it into flat out hate for it. I mean, I too have had decades of MMO experience with varying levels of PvP and all it's done is make me hate PvP with all my heart. I've been killed for everything from saying Hi to being first at a timed spawn item to just crossing the street. And this was before I'd played my first '3DCG' MMO! People like myself played XI or XIV because the PvP is NOT intrinsic to the game experience and forcing them into PvP won't end anything like you'd imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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10-06-2015, 09:47 PMAphelI too enjoy the adrenaline rush but not everyone does. There are PvP options already available for people wanting to dip their toes in it and if there truly was a surge in interest, the PvP sub-forum would have been crawling with activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
It has a high skill ceiling, filled with frustration, twitch reflexes and humiliation for beginners. After mastering your own class and understanding others would players get better while crushing the opposition. Most players just want to tackle content cooperatively peacefully, not stomping all over other people.
Accept the fact that not everyone will come to like PvP. Throwing it in their faces isn't going to work. -
10-06-2015, 10:26 PMTeryaaniPlayers leave the game (or jump servers) for lots of reasons. I have no doubt that you've seen a goodly number of players bail, but most of the time they never say why. The crafting system could be just as responsible as the raiding situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Regarding the path to gearing, SE followed the same bizarre raid release schedule that they did in 2.0. It should have been 24 man raid (casual) > Story (NM) Alex > Extreme (HM) Alex. I'm certainly not going to defend their release order or reward choices in extreme mode if they skimped on those.
As I said before about combining modes (and the folks above me have said better than I do), it doesn't end well. It just leaves a large number of those people who after, really don't want anything to do with PVP. -
10-06-2015, 11:00 PMDererk
I hate PVP in this game I only see it as run and gun even and as a person who prefers melee roles that's boring. So let me get this straight people are tired of the long frontline ques and want to force end game people who do not like pvp into pvp content?
Ya I wonder I really do wonder why the frontline ques are so long.
Spoiler alert people its because most of the player base hates it now you want them to hate it more?