Clearing Confusion - MMORPG differentiation

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Whenever someone brings up FFXI people immediately thinks they want a clone of FFXI and that "Bawww FFXIV is supposed to be different go back to XI!!!!1".

The thing is, while FFXIV is supposed to be different, it almost died a month after released because it was trying to be different for the sake of being different. Before I go into examples here's the basic systems of FFXI for those that don't know:

-Search system
e.g /sea jennestia will bring up my character name, location and a search comment if I set it and also allow you to invite if lfg and in same region/send a tell/friend request.

The search system of FFXI was extremely basic though rarely even used in MMOs as they typically used a different type of search, however they also worked very fluidly.

-Linkshell Management
e.g kick/promote/set linkshell message etc. Basic foundation system.

-Client side interface.
Self Explanatory.

That's just a few things foundation wise that XIV could have benefited from, yet people go into a hissy fit simply because FFXI had it, which is basically the next "Why you gotta bring up WoW?" Since it's apparently too much to expect SE to remember the basics after 10 years from another Final Fantasy MMO they've done.

XIV's foundation lays as follows:

-Serverside interface
All this does is hinder the game's foundation.

-Linkshell management
Very Limited and will eventually expand.

-Recruit system/"new lfg system"
Some say it's better, but it's still restrictive in implementation, still no exact "Look at me I'm looking for a party!" like with XI yet.

Basically, they went with the route of a serverside interface which no other MMO has more than likely to try to curb RMT, however it also hinders progression of basic features.

Now, people say FFXIV is supposed to be a different game and that the only similarties to FFXI should end at the races, that's cool, however here are my examples of what it means to be "different":

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I'm afraid if I say anything good about XI I'll be told my nostalgia goggles are on too tight.

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You two are just reading into what people have been saying regarding that. I can only speak for myself, but when I address your nostalgia goggles, it's never in regards to systems like these.

I don't know why you are using an argument to your point that has nothing to do with what you're saying. These basic systems would be needed regardless of FFXI existing or not. They also do not set emotional attachments to the game. Just user friendliness that propel players to enjoy what the game offers having to do with it's lore and active content.

These are general systems. Of course it would be pulled from other games. Just like any other tool in life.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

You two are just reading into what people have been saying regarding that. I can only speak for myself, but when I address your nostalgia goggles, it's never in regards to systems like these.

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I'm not speaking to you directly but the mere act of saying I enjoyed XI for ____ Reason gets people frothing at the mouth and saying the only reason I enjoyed it was because it was several years ago I did ____. Totally missing the point of why ____ system or scenario could be a good thing.

Lets say, the big travel debate for instance,

I can say that I enjoyed walking in XI because it was rewarding when you got somewhere and I feel that Anima cheapens that reward, sure I can still walk but it doesn't have the same impact or reward because it was a fruitless endeavor.

I am not better for the experience and I've just wasted time I needn't have wasted due to the options the game presents me with. I want a system where travel is rewarding and I feel restricting the use of Anima is key to that.

First couple of replies I will see are, Thats not how this game works! FFXI travel was terrible! Take of your nostalgia goggles and look at it my way! Agree with me!

Many people who are for/against certain systems in the game have a habbit of not actually explaining why they feel these ways, it's the basics of human phsychology to assume people will agree with us without much reason behind it. Our brains are stuck in Alpha mode when we get passionate about something and never have the foresight to back up our claims.

Likewise when disagreeing with something people flip to Alpha mode and get defensive about such a claim of a system that is not their ideal system. The lack of being able to convey passion, context, sarcasm, emotion in general over the internet compounds this situation ten fold.

All I ask is when I don't agree with something somebody doesn't assume I'm not being objective and looking at it outside my past experience. I still think Travel in XI was rewarding, I still think NM's were a fun pastime for me, I still think gear that doesn't out-date is a good idea, I still think HNM's sucked balls so I never participated, and I still think Time-sinks are great to have if used properly *Yes I say travel is a good use of a time-sink*

When someone doesn't agree with me and gives me their reason thats great, I'll do me best to counter there points and vice-versa. People also tend to get upset at this stage when they find out that I am of a different opinion of them and I wont be swayed by their justification or reasons. They think it as being Stonewalled when infact it's me listening but not agreeing, can't fault someone for that.

Blaming someone for something like having nostalgia goggles is a bold and I think rude claim, I don't tell people "You didn't experience it so you can't comment on it".

...I'll continue this later long story short.

I at least am not looking through "Nostalgia goggles" I am just stating what I found enjoyable and what I think others would enjoy in the long run, even if it incurs some short term pain.

No pain no gain!

Investment vs Reward.

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Originally Posted by Zorvan

Sorry, ain't gonna happen. If they wanted to go the "hardcore" route, they needed to do it from the beginning.

They've lost millions on this game already and they lose money every day that it's in development with no sub fees coming in. They took a big club to the face due to Tanaka's screwing around and Wada's incompetence.

Investors want their money, S-E corporate wants its money. Your niche crowd of "hardcore" players ain't gonna provide that money.

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How do you consider yourself losing money on something that would have been in development anyways had it not been released?
Potential revenue sure, I'll give you that.

Also, the 'hardcore' players CAN provide that, just over years, and not through immediate satisfaction.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

These are general systems. Of course it would be pulled from other games. Just like any other tool in life.

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This is the reason FFXI is mainly referenced:

1. Final Fantasy XI - Final Fantasy XIV -- Pretty straight forward.

2. Squaresoft(Enix) developed both games.

3. Between FFXI's original Beta (2001) and FFXIV's development (2007) they introduced another MMORPG that didn't throw out the basics Front Mission Online. (It wasn't horrible, it wasn't great it was a good entry to the Front Mission series, but could have been better.

4. They had 10 years of MMO development knowledge and experience.

It has nothing to do with Nostalgia, it has to do with Square had the perfect basic foundation to build off of and make it something better (different you know?) What XIV was wasn't just different, they did everything from the foundation to content style different for the sake of it, because remember, their original mantra was "We did it this way to make it as different from FFXI as possible."..their entire goal was to make nothing beyond races similar to XI...almost to the point of overkill, especially in regards to RMT.

They're basic systems, but there's still yet to be an MMO where I can literally open my chat box, type /search ___ and turn up results.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

This is the reason FFXI is mainly referenced:

1. Final Fantasy XI - Final Fantasy XIV -- Pretty straight forward.

2. Squaresoft(Enix) developed both games.

3. Between FFXI's original Beta (2001) and FFXIV's development (2007) they introduced another MMORPG that didn't throw out the basics Front Mission Online. (It wasn't horrible, it wasn't great it was a good entry to the Front Mission series, but could have been better.

4. They had 10 years of MMO development knowledge and experience.

It has nothing to do with Nostalgia, it has to do with Square had the perfect basic foundation to build off of and make it something better (different you know?) What XIV was wasn't just different, they did everything from the foundation to content style different for the sake of it, because remember, their original mantra was "We did it this way to make it as different from FFXI as possible."..their entire goal was to make nothing beyond races similar to XI...almost to the point of overkill, especially in regards to RMT.

They're basic systems, but there's still yet to be an MMO where I can literally open my chat box, type /search ___ and turn up results.

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I never claimed any of this was born from nostalgia in my post, so, I don't know why you're talking to me like it did. I was essentially agreeing with you and not with Jynx.

The best way to find a good mix for a game genre is to keep trying new things all the time. We saw Square do this countless times in the past by changing battle systems, camera styles, the kind of world the game is set in and so on. The only way a genre can grow is by experimenting, otherwise everything becomes 'samey' and stale.

From what I can tell of FFXIV, Square were not just going for a game that was completely different from FFXI, but also completely different from any other MMO on the market, this way it feels fresh, new and unique and stops people crowing 'clone' all day. It's a bold move when a company tries this kind of thing as it can cost them a lot of money, and as we've all seen it didn't work so well in some regards, but thankfully the good thing about an MMO is that it can be remade without having to create a brand new game.

Those are just my thoughts on it, not argueing with anyone, just wanted to add my little bit.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

What XIV was wasn't just different, they did everything from the foundation to content style different for the sake of it, because remember, their original mantra was "We did it this way to make it as different from FFXI as possible."..their entire goal was to make nothing beyond races similar to XI

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^^This was their second critical flaw.

SE was determined to have their two MMOs running alongside eachother. FFXIV was purposefully designed to be as different as FFXI as possible so that it wouldn't siphon the majority of players from FFXI.

As the FFXIV release drew near, the FFXI team was instructed to open the floodgates of content, etc in order to keep players involved in XI. Hence Abyssea and the level cap increase.

Everyone knows that the rushed release of XIV that ended up throwing a wrench into both games, but it was compounded by a second mistake. One that completely went against their original designs for XIV.

The races.

If FFXIV had entirely new races (or Ivalice ones). It would have been much more likely to have been judged on its own merits. The problem is that while they tried to make something entirely different from XI, they chose to put the one thing into XIV would make it look like a direct sequel more than sequel more than anything else.

This caused many of the FFXI players to be the first in line when it came to FFXIV sales. The game wasn't close to being finished and any NEW systems that weren't working (or incomplete) were instantly compared to FFXI systems that did work. A new dev team was brought in. The original design was gutted. And the players began to give their feedback on the forums which would transform XIV from an incomplete new-style MMO, into a FFXI sequel.

It was the races that did it.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

It was the races that did it.

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It was those dastardly Hyur all along!

From what I remember reading, S.E wanted XIV to have some familiarity for returning players from XI so they made the races look similar, hence we got Hume > Hyur, Mithra > Miqo'te, Taru > Lalafell and so on. In some ways it was a good idea 'cos then players would be like "yay, i look like I did in XI, but more awesome!", but then yes as you said, it also caused XI players to throw in comparisons instead of trying to view it as a new game.

It's kind of ironic, because FF games, at least untill X-2, were reknown for NEVER having sequals. Only if they're officially marked as a sequal could they be considered as an actual sequal, and XIV was never marked a sequal, but people still tried to look at it as if it were one. If this were released as Final Fantasy XI-2, then it'd be understandable, but because it's called Final Fantasy XIV, no comparison should ever be made or expected.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

It was the races that did it.

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Honestly I probably never would have picked the game up if it had the Ivalice races in it "Banga and Viera and whatever" I can assume it was the same for a good chunk of people.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Honestly I probably never would have picked the game up if it had the Ivalice races in it "Banga and Viera and whatever" I can assume it was the same for a good chunk of people.

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What about if they all looked like this?

Would all the Taru fans have rolled prinnies?