A new tank stance to fit Dark Knight better

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

And you don't think you will take a ton of damage, or use a ton of MP during the 30 seconds that they are down? Or if you fail to make the full use of them in their duration, you go longer with the same problem. If you get stunned, you'll lose MP. If the boss goes invuln, you will lose HP. All things that can happen during these skills up time.

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Yes, and that is why its an Advanced Job. Also, all of that can be countered by knowing the fight. If you know when things go invuln. Also, you can still turn Dark Side off when they do, for example.

There might be some fights where you might not even want to turn on Darkside until after invulnerability phases.

All of this is simply skill, knowing your class.

Its "Perfect" in my opinion. Advanced Jobs should be harder to play.

Harder yes, but requiring other skills to make up for the fall backs of other skills is poor class design. And the synergy between these skills and other cooldowns on the class are detrimental to each other. Shadowskin and Shadow Wall would effectively reduce your MP recovery. Which is precisely why I don't believe Grit OR Darkside should have any sort of draining effect. Which, also, I would remind you, were not a part of previous final fantasy dark knights. None of them had ticking HP or MP drains only an ability to sacrifice a set amount of HP for damage.

This is all besides the fact though honestly. I stated earlier that your unwillingness to work within the developer's intended theme would mean your ideas would likely go ignored. So why I haven't ignored you is beyond me at this point. But I'll be sure to make it a point to do so now. For future references, I suggest you stick to what the developers say they want to do, since they are the ones with the actual power to change the game, rather than throw about fantasy ideas that take the role an entirely different direction... one that has already been stated they refuse to go in.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

So many people are trying to suggest skills within the "theme" of the Dark Knight. The theme they believe a Dark Knight must fall into is almost always taking more damage in some way to do something. Square has already stated that they were not going to do that, so why people continue to beat that dead horse shows just how idiotic they are.

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The only thing that was stated is that they thought of skills that directly sacrifice HP for doing damage. And that was counter-productive for a tank.

From several replies here, it seems like people forget that tank already take a lot of unavoidable damage. A DRK with Dread Spikes will not search for damage, it will benefit from the one he already take.

As for the "theme", what bothers me most is that out tanking stance is exactly the same as PLD. Only three tanks in the game and two of them already share the same basic mechanic for mitigation.
You want a parry or magical tank ?
The problem with parry is reliability. Either you parry everything...and it's basically a renamed Shield Oath that already use your parry proc, which makes it weaker than Shield Oath in real fights, or you don't parry everything and that spot of unreliability will kill you.
Magical tank ? What is a magical tank ? Someone who reduce magic damage ? What good is it when others tanks reduce all types of damage ? Someone who use magic to reduce damage ? By spells ? By losing MP each time it is hit ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The only thing that was stated is that they thought of skills that directly sacrifice HP for doing damage. And that was counter-productive for a tank.

From several replies here, it seems like people forget that tank already take a lot of unavoidable damage. A DRK with Dread Spikes will not search for damage, it will benefit from the one he already take.

As for the "theme", what bothers me most is that out tanking stance is exactly the same as PLD. Only three tanks is the game and two of them already share the same basic mechanic for mitigation.
You want a parry or magical tank ?
Parry : The problem with parry is reliability. Either you parry everything...and it's basically a renamed Shield Oath that already use your parry proc, which makes it weaker than Shield Oath in real fights, or you don't parry everything and that spot of unreliability will kill you.
Magical tank ? What is a magical tank. Someone who reduce magic damage ? What good is it when others tanks reduce all types of damage ? Someone who use magic to reduce damage ? By spells ? By losing MP each time it is hit ?

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Agreed. =)

Losing a small amount of HP over time is a heck of a lot different then "taking more damage". Taking more damage is a silly concept to any tank. However, sacrificing HP to gain further abilities which lowers damage taken and heals you for more is not a bad concept.

Taking more damage does not work as a tank.

Another thing is, you wouldn't need it to tank. Its an extra thing you can use, which you can gain even more HP or MP from if you use it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The only thing that was stated is that they thought of skills that directly sacrifice HP for doing damage. And that was counter-productive for a tank.

From several replies here, it seems like people forget that tank already take a lot of unavoidable damage. A DRK with Dread Spikes will not search for damage, it will benefit from the one he already take.

As for the "theme", what bothers me most is that out tanking stance is exactly the same as PLD. Only three tanks is the game and two of them already share the same basic mechanic for mitigation.
You want a parry or magical tank ?
Parry : The problem with parry is reliability. Either you parry everything...and it's basically a renamed Shield Oath that already use your parry proc, which makes it weaker than Shield Oath in real fights, or you don't parry everything and that spot of unreliability will kill you.
Magical tank ? What is a magical tank. Someone who reduce magic damage ? What good is it when others tanks reduce all types of damage ? Someone who use magic to reduce damage ? By spells ? By losing MP each time it is hit ?

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The issue with players is they ask for originality, but when it is given, there are fundamental flaws with certain original skills. Tank toggles, toggles in general, are one of the hardest things to make truly original without copying something from somewhere. Even the Dread Spikes idea has been done before, and it's just like a permanent form of Vengeance. So please, tell me, what's actually original here? That it's a toggle? At some point, for the purpose of actually making the class viable, originality might have to be sacrificed. However, there is an original idea that could ACTUALLY work that has not been seen in the game, and it is kind of like what the OP suggested, but at the same time, not.

A tanking stance that works fluidly. Essentially, as damage in increases, the benefit of the buff increases. Essentially, this works for things like healing received and damage received. For attacks that do a significant amount of damage, usually indicated by a % of hp the attack will damage for, the buff reacts stronger. The formula essentially goes like this.

((Damage/Max HP) * .5) * 100 = Damage % reduction. So say you have an HP pool of 15000, and you take a hit for 3k. So that's 3k/15k = .2 then .2 * .5 = .1. .1 * 100 = 10, so the hit would then be reduced by 10% to 2700. Or, say you have a hit coming in for 5000. That would be reduced to 4167, a reduction of 16% of damage. The only problem arises with a threshold. There will become a point where the damage reduction equals 100%, which is when damage is double your HP pool. Of course, a fix to that would be a limit formula. Essentially, set the limit to be a maximum of like 25%. So the formula would look more like this.

((Damage/Max HP) * .5) * 100 = Damage % reduction to a maximum of 25%.

This same thing can be applied to healing, but can be created without a maximum, but also requires a duration that the calculations are based on. Essentially All damage taken in the past 10, 20, 30 seconds, (whatever duration you want to choose) divided by HP pool then multiplied by a percentage and then multiplied by 100 to be converted to another percentage would equal increased healing received.

So... ((Damage total in the last 10 seconds/HP maximum) * .1*) * 100 = % of increased healing received. This can also be changed to be the total damage received in the last number of hits as well.

These are what's known as fluid buffs, as they change continuously based on the situation of the fight. The name Grit is entirely fitting for this as well, since it is essentially man moding your way through things. The higher the damage, the higher the buff's effects. The lower, the lower the effects.

Edit: Another fluid toggle I almost forgot is the fluid shield. A % of damage received = the amount of damage reduced on the next attack received. This is particularly good against tank busters, as say 25% of 10k might absorb the next auto attack. But it isn't so over powered as when it reduces damage, it also reduces the amount of damage that the next shield can be calculated with.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

So please, tell me, what's actually original here? That it's a toggle? At some point, for the purpose of actually making the class viable, originality might have to be sacrificed.

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It's a reactive leech. And another way of increasing eHP passively. In fact the "retaliate" part is not the the main purpose of the skill it's just there to explain where to healing comes from. Like I asked earlier, PLD has its Shield, WAR has its sheer HP pool, what makes DRK suddenly take less damage ?

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

However, there is an original idea that could ACTUALLY work that has not been seen in the game, and it is kind of like what the OP suggested, but at the same time, not.

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I am the OP :p

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Essentially, as damage in increases, the benefit of the buff increases. Essentially, this works for things like healing received and damage received. For attacks that do a significant amount of damage, usually indicated by a % of hp the attack will damage for, the buff reacts stronger.

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That sounds a little confusing. Can you imagine a tooltip (like the ones in the game)to explain the skill without any confusion and theorycrafting needed ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That sounds a little confusing. Can you imagine a tooltip (like the ones in the game)to explain the skill without any confusion and theorycrafting needed ?

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Yes. I'll make one for you. For % damage reduction:

Reduce damage in relation to your HP, capped at 25%. As damage increases, Reduction increases.

For % of HP recovered:

Increase HP recovery of incoming heals in relation to damage received.

For shields:

25% of damage received is used as a shield on the next incoming damage.

Edit: Personally I think the shields one is really the most fitting for Dark Knight. To go with the "sacrifice" theme so many people seem so stupidly in love with, it's pretty much like sacrificing HP for a shield so that the next hit isn't so hard, but then that damage also acts as a sacrifice so the next hit doesn't hit so hard, and so on.

That absolutely not "without any confusion". You basically don't know how much mitigation or healing bonus you have at each time or in regards to other skills.

Yep, but the formula isn't so hard to figure out if you simply run a few numbers. Further, since when has Square been completely forth coming with how things are calculated? The stats for instance are still a mystery as to precisely how much each one effects your players.

Further, they are much more interesting and complex than the basic porcupine buff, or the "I do the same thing as Shield Oath, but just drain your MP" buff. You request originality, complexity, and I hand it to you on a silver platter, and you whine about not being able to understand it. Typical.

Edit: These also don't have any RNG either to them. Their calculations are entirely predictable and can be followed without the complication of luck. AND, their interactions with other game mechanics, like block, parry and evade, are minimal. Should you parry an attack, you would just have a slightly smaller shield for the next attack, or slightly less healing boost. The damage reduction would remain unaffected, since the damage reduction is in the moment, not after. Evade an attack with the shield toggle? Well, the shield just carries over to the next attack that lands. PLUS, the shield would take effect on magic damage too, so it would be much better than a Parry buff. Porcupine buffs are notoriously linked with just taking effect with physical damage too. Evade an attack with the healing buff? Yeah, it's less boost to healing, but you evaded and attack, you shouldn't need as much healing anyways. BUT the benefit to these toggles is that when things get tough, they get better.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Yep, but the formula isn't so hard to figure out if you simply run a few numbers. Further, since when has Square been completely forth coming with how things are calculated?.

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Since when has Square-Enix been anything but forth-coming about mitigation ?
Shield Oath ? 20% damage reduce
Defiance ? 25% more HP, 20% more healing
Every mitigation skill is a clear percentage.
Stoneskin state exatcly its threshold, Adloquium even tell you the nice boost in potency for critical heals.

Sorry, but those calculations need to be stated clearly in the game.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Further, they are much more interesting and complex than the basic porcupine buff, or the "I do the same thing as Shield Oath, but just drain your MP" buff. You request originality, complexity, and I hand it to you on a silver platter, and you whine about not being able to understand it. Typical.

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Actually, I don't think so. Its effect is totally passive, and you don't have to manage anything about it.
As I said, the porcupine effect allows you to decide if you want to take some more damage. It requires you to check quickly what buffs are on you, and judge if they're enough to not put too much stress on your healers.
"I have Stoneskin and Adloquium and the whole raid is pretty much full life ? I can take the full blow" "The raid is in bad shape, time to put my damage aside and focus on pure mitigation".
You bring complexity at understanding and calculating, not complexity at playing the game.