Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

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Originally Posted by Zetonegi

I think I need music for this

There is one teensy-weensy little problem with that... it won't You're posting in a forum that has had 5 different threads on AHs/MWs... on the first page at the same time... There is no end-all thread to a topic people care about here because someone will decide THEIR idea deserves its own thread instead of bumping an existing thread. Now if you will be so kind as to stop posting and let this thread die like you should every other thread that you think is stupid. If something is actually problematic there are nice people with GM avatars that can take care of it. If you have a problem with how the moderators and administrators run this forum then I suggest you stop coming here because there is nothing you can do about that. Otherwise, accept the fact that people will post stupid threads, as evidenced by this one, and leave the ones you don't care about alone. Although you may find it hard, it is possible to not post in every thread on the front page and still be a constructive member of the forums.

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Good music (b'.')b

As it is, your post is the most correct one, I dunno, maybe I had high hopes that stating facts would stop the whole thing. Maybe it was lack of sleep making me believe that there was some way to stop people posting stupid arguements.

Gonna take the advice though, because you didn't try to counter, you came up with a solution, which is better. I'm gonna have a veeeeeery long ignore list after this day is through I think XD

Just gonna live in the FFXIV All Stars Idea thread I think, it's nice in that thread.

Can close this thread now rep, no point it being here. Or just leave it on and let people go nuts in it, don't care, not gonna read it anymore anyways.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Can close this thread now rep, no point it being here. Or just leave it on and let people go nuts in it, don't care, not gonna read it anymore anyways.

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I am in shock, not even elementary school level logic was enough to make this person see reason. Insult everyone's intelligence on a public forum, then run away when people disagree and try to prove your point wrong... lack of maturity as described in a children psychology book.

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Originally Posted by Kirith

I am in shock, not even elementary school level logic was enough to make this person see reason. Insult everyone's intelligence on a public forum, then run away when people disagree and try to prove your point wrong... lack of maturity as described in a children psychology book.

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No not really, just got bored of 4 days of reading stupid posts, plus I needed to get ready for my job interview and stuff.
Haven't ran away in the other threads I've posted in, not running away now, plus I was asking for people to prove my point wrong, why would I run away then when people tried?

+1 to ignore list.

I said I wasn't gonna post in it, not that I wasn't gonna read it.

What I say and what I do are two different things.

Don't like it? Tough.

Continue flaming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfOUhwhdUV0

that is all.

Thanks for the thread. Needs more likes, I think. This is something that is futile though. People are still going to be going on and on about what kills their "immersion".

I've basically been screaming this into Azurannoying's ear, but under more simpler terms as to make it perfectly clear. Immersion simply is specific to the person. This is what makes it unfortunate for people that feel the same way as this player because what they want is something they probably are never going to get. Mostly FFXI nostalgia driven systems that in the past really got their juices flowing. This was confused with not being immersed when the whole entire time it was just their love for a former game that kept their eyes glued to the screen.

When players combat the game's ability to keep them immersed it later dawns on them that it pretty much varies from person to person. So, really... it can't be argued in the way that it has being that it's so subjective.

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Originally Posted by weeble

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfOUhwhdUV0

that is all.

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I absolutely was amazed by this post. This combined with the objective definition of the word immersion provided by the OP ends the argument specifically on the definition of the word "immersion".

If people want to post their recommendations for the game in an attempt to further "their immersion" they are more than welcome to do so, but they need to present how that would increase "their immersion" not "immersion" in an objective sense because the degree to which someone is "immersed" in a medium is entirely subjective.

I honestly feel that people who have been arguing for game mechanics to be implemented for "immersion's sake" are really arguing for "realism". If they framed their arguments in that context they would be correct, otherwise they are not from the get go. Granted they would still get the same counterarguments to "realism" by people who didn't agree with them, but at least from the outset they'd be arguing with common definitions and some kind of objective basis to set them on. It would just be changed to realism vs. gameplay, which I think is at the basis of that particular argument in the thread that will not be named.

The OP's post is literally not sophistry. It's an attempt to put a logically grounded basis to the premise of "immersion" instead of just throwing the word out there for the sake of uncovering truth. Konachibi provides an undeniable outside source to support her argument, which is significantly more than what others have done. I find it odd how people can get so flustered, to the point of accusation, over an objective definition.

It's not like Kona's proposing that the post ends the realism vs. gameplay argument. The OP is only making it known the actual objective definition of "immersion". There is even an avenue provided, if so one chooses, to use the different words. If you want realism argue for realism, not immersion. Immersion is too subjective for any one person to apply their idea of immersion and expect it to apply equally for everyone else.

It's just wrong, right out of the gate.

By definition.

The OP clearly presents that.

+1 to the OP.

Replace word immersion with term suspension of disbelief. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

When you have to run from place to place it creates psychologically makes the game feel larger and more alive to you because you are forced to travel and experience it.
Instant porting on the other hand makes the game feel like a series of levels and un-connected pscyhologically.

edit:
another way to argue it would be that if you took harry potter, and had the author randomly write what she was thinking when she wrote each line. "Ron attacked harry screaming you pervert." "Here I wanted to show the angst in teenage love".
The disconnect provided by the authors commentary would detract from the immersion provided by the story.

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Wow, you read books, do you?

Then you should know, I'm about to point out how silly you sound. There are many people who are immersed in the worlds that are opened up to them through books. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, for example, could arguably have inspired the entire RPG genre we now know and love, including Final Fantasy.

And yet, The Lord of the Rings, though it's entirely about a perilous journey, does not subject the reader to a footfall-by-footfall account. There are gaps where the uninteresting and mundane appear. We can assume that these "unassuming" moments weren't interesting enough to mention and get on with the action and suspense of the real story. In other words, it transports the reader to the engaging parts of the journey. Yet, despite this, certainly the last complaint you'd hear out of the many Tolkien fans was that his stories were not immersive enough.

I thank those who have posted positive input as to my original post and show an understanding of what I was trying to explain to people, even if they disagree with it. Your posts give faith to the community that there are open-minded people that are prepared to consider the possibility of other ways of looking at things.

By positive I do not mean agreeing with me, I mean expressing their own thoughts and opinions on the matter, I appreciate people that disagree with me also, as long as it is done in a calm and dignified manner, not the "shut up you don't know nothing idiot" posts.

My original post was an attempt to explain what the definition of 'immersion' was so that it could be utilised in a relevant and understandable means during a debate. I did not do this just to annoy people as some think, I made it in hope that future posts regarding immersion could be explained in a better way so as to stop them sounding like "I don't like this so I want it removed no matter if other people do like it." and more like "It would be nice if *this* was an option for people who want more or less of it."

To explain, something that ruins the overall immersion would be:

People only being viewable from 20 feet away when in largely crowded areas.

This is because it is something that affects everybody as a whole. FFXIV is a multiplayer game and so when standing in a city, the slow loading times of other players makes the game feel empty, decreasing it's sense of being a multiplayer game. Although this does not 'bother' some people, it does affect them.

Something that would affect a single persons immersion would be:

The boat ride between Thanalan and La Noscea.

This would be because some people enjoy the boat ride (Personally I do enjoy it sometimes) because it gives the game a sense of openess and a more 'realistic' (I use the term loosely) feeling of travel. Other people however would prefer to skip this part out so they could more quickly reach other aspects of the game they do enjoy.

Maybe this thread can be redeemed, MAYBE, instead of it being 'the immersion people vs. Konachibi' :p

Debate these things, don't argue them.

Man, this thread has ruined my immersion in the game...

Nah, just joking! Good job with the OP, Konata!