Off Tank DPS - is Pld > War still a valid arguement?

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Unchained and inner beast ignore the damage reduction from the tanking stance though, and paladin has no ability that ignores their tanking stance.

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All tests and math take this into account.

The only time where unchained can become a bigger benefit is when you're not tanking 100% of the time. Either through tank swaps or the WAR is OT and switches in and out of defiance depending on the phase. If this is the case, then unchained will be up more often while you are tanking, providing more of a damage boost while tanking than it normally would.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

This is total garbage advice. If you have unchained and Infur up and are DPSing, HS > Defiance > Infur > Unchained > Combo -> Inner Beast > Drop Defiance

There is no reason not to use unchained if you don't need it or infur in the near future because you get a free 300 potency attack out of using it, AND it saves you TP. I start off pulls that I am DPSing on in Defiance, using that strategy, a great opener is:

Infur > Unchained (Pre-pull) > Fract > Brutal > Heavy > Maim > Internal > Berserk > Eye > Heavy > Maim > Path > IB > Drop Defiance > Heavy > Maim > Eye > Fract.

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Sure it's good to start a fight, but you need a little nuance to use it mid fight. The problem with Defiance > Infur > Unchained is that those skills have a non-trivial activation time, so you may not be able to fit all 3 in within a single GCD. If you don't, then you're delaying your next hit, which takes away from whatever you've just added. You'd need to time the activation so that it's right after a jump or while pacified from berserk so you don't interrupt your normal swing speed. It's not really that big a boost. Remember IB is not an off GCD attack, so it's only providing an extra 100 (at most) potency over your normal attack cycle, in addition to small DPS provided by a little bit of extra crit. If you have to delay your swing by half a GCD to activate defiance > unchained, then I don't think you gain anything whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by nijian

Iif you over complicate things with crazy exact theories, and fail to execute the mechanics.

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Except NOONE here said that. What's being discussed, in a situation where people are capable of dealing with the mechanics (that aren't really incredibly difficult to begin with), while pushing as hard as they can to maximize their output above and beyond that. It's optimizing once we've already cleared the content, are bored and want to continue to improve. It's silly to insist that there can't be combination of being able to execute mechanics correctly AND optimize your outputs, whether it be DPS output or healing/mana efficiency. Noone here is advocating favoring higher DPS output in lieu of dealing with mechanics first.

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But you're right. I guess this is a theory crafting class, and I will be stepping outa here. Learning new bits of facts about CDs and buffs etc is cool, but I won't be spending time theory crafting... I'll leave that task to others...

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Ok, great. Not really seeing the need to be snarky when you seem to dismiss the point of discussing this content to begin with. Not sure why you think people who theory craft and maximize their DPS do so at the expense of failing mechanics. Fact is, you're not maximizing your output, which is perfectly fine and not even necessary to be successful at this game. But others do, and do so while not failing mechanics...

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And Asherek, were it not for the fact you've cleared T13, and seemingly more so than I, I would have just ignored your post and laughed, but out of respect, I'll leave it at that.

ugh, theory classes ... *leaves*

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Really, not sure why you want to go down this path. I beat T13 a good 1.5 months before you did, in way lower gear levels. And you know what? So what. I'm not going to discount what you said because of that. I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to really understand the point of the thread.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

If you have to delay your swing by half a GCD to activate defiance > unchained, then I don't think you gain anything whatsoever.

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Disagree, just don't delay your GCDs, Defiance > Infur > Heavy > Unchained. You lose about 37 potency on your heavy swing versus non-defiance, whereas you gain about 85 potency when you use your inner beast.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Disagree, just don't delay your GCDs, Defiance > Infur > Heavy > Unchained. You lose about 37 potency on your heavy swing versus non-defiance, whereas you gain about 85 potency when you use your inner beast.

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You also lose damage from any auto-attacks that occur between the activation of defiance and unchained, and again between when unchained runs out and defiance is removed (although you can prevent the last case by just flipping off defiance before unchained ends). This can further erode your gains. And you're only talking about a potential ~48 pot gain (using the above method) once every two minutes if you use the above method and don't clip any auto attacks. It's not *that* big a gain. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a tank to decide not to deal with this if they don't want to worry about it.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

This is total garbage advice. If you have unchained and Infur up and are DPSing, HS > Defiance > Infur > Unchained > Combo -> Inner Beast > Drop Defiance

There is no reason not to use unchained if you don't need it or infur in the near future because you get a free 300 potency attack out of using it, AND it saves you TP. I start off pulls that I am DPSing on in Defiance, using that strategy, a great opener is:

Infur > Unchained (Pre-pull) > Fract > Brutal > Heavy > Maim > Internal > Berserk > Eye > Heavy > Maim > Path > IB > Drop Defiance > Heavy > Maim > Eye > Fract

Once you become unpacified start with Path if you are needing the debuff, you will only end up with about 1 second of downtime on the debuff even if you aren't esuna'ed. Its worth mentioning you need 390-420 sksp for this to work depending on your latency.

And of course you have outdpsing PLD MTs because they are in Shield Oath. WAR MT will always do more dmg than PLD MT, while PLD OT should do more dps than a WAR OT.

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I don't understand why you'd have your PLD be the MT in Shield Oath at the start of the fight if you're going to use Unchained. It's better for the WAR to pull and get full damage from BB instead of SP while the PLD gets full use out of his Fight or Flight + Sword Oath.

For me, the whole point of using Unchained is to allow both tanks to deal full damage without sacrificing mitigation. Using it in any situation that doesn't allow that is a waste.

I just saw some recent Lucrezia numbers for T12 and their PLD put up 380 DPS! That got me interested. So i did some more research and found numbers of his T11 (338) and his T10 at a whopping 431! :eek: How is this even possible? I'm happy if i break the 200 mark! He put his warrior to shame who is also no slouch!? This is something i've never seen.

OT STR PLD > OT WAR ?

To see his gear check him out on Lodestone

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

I just saw some recent Lucrezia numbers for T12 and their PLD put up 380 DPS! That got me interested. So i did some more research and found numbers of his T11 (338) and his T10 at a whopping 431! :eek: How is this even possible? I'm happy if i break the 200 mark! He put his warrior to shame who is also no slouch!? This is something i've never seen.

OT STR PLD > OT WAR ?

To see his gear check him out on Lodestone

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If you look at the "hits" Im not sure what it is but im guessing "actions" or skills PLD have at 6xx war is at 3xx

Full STR build and an extremely good group around him. Their NIN hits 600 dps....

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Full STR build and an extremely good group around him. Their NIN hits 600 dps....

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Do you think he also put 30 A.Points into STR as well? He mentioned on a Q/A thread that 7500 HP is all he needs for T10 and 8500 HP for T11-T12