A Use for Classes.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

why even bother with jobs?

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Less prep work.

If you can dodge reliably, and like dodging, there is no reason to go through all the prep work required to gear up a Class.

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hy go through an entire grind to accommodate latency-dependent encounters instead of tuning the encounters to accommodate for the average latency?

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Define "avg latency"? Will tuning for avg latency make it too easy (hence boring) for people with low ping?

With Classes in my suggestion, the gameplay is shifted from "dodging in dungeons" to "figuring out the right skill set and gear to survive the attack".

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f a class has more hp to be more reliable to survive unavoidable AoE, why would I want to bring a job that has a lower overall survivability ...

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Who said anything about HP? Dodgeable AoE will be negate by Classes with skills and passive resist. More HP will just burden healers.

Survivability is depend on the player, not the Job/Class. If a player is good at dodge, his survivability will be fine regardless whether he plays a Job or Class. If a player can't dodge, then a Class is a good option - you pay for it with prep work required.

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And I keep bringing WoW as an example because they have tried doing something like that in the past, and it just straight up didn't work out (element wheel),

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WoW did it wrong, and as typical of Blizzard, they just cut it out instead of trying to fix it.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Would you then be able to play a class like a job and get the best of both worlds?.

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The intent is to design it such that there is no point to doing so.

That if you start dodging as a Class, you gain no benefit - heck it could even lower your damage/healing. It would be like a tank (a real military tank) evading small arms fires ...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

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> How is this applicable in the grand scheme of things? The way it is right now, mechanics either one shot you through sheer damage or knocking you off the platform (landslide), or deal an enormous amount of damage. The first two isn't applicable unless the design of being a class would outright ignore the mechanic altogether. And this has to persist for the entire fight. If a player cannot dodge something like landslide because of latency, one freebie every minute won't save them, unless you want them to be able to use that ability to dodge it everything and trivialize the encounter. Heck, even this is up to grabs for latency, like those moments where HG or holmygang doesn't save the tank, or benediction doesn't go out in time. You said it's not a straight up hp increase, so I'm really confused on what you want classes to be capable of, do you want them to have a perfect dodge that has a low cooldown for every landslide/weight or something?

> Then you try suggesting something. It doesn't help your end if to say "it's only one way of doing it, and they did it wrong." Is there even a proper way to implement it? Granted neither of us are game developers, so we might as well be asking for something completely out of reason. Come up with something as a compromise instead of tossing it aside and saying they could've done better. How do you propose to have an elemental/aspected damage mechanic in a game like this, without causing class/job segregation?

My bottom line is this; why do we want to change the class to accommodate for latency sensitive fights, instead of changing the encounter itself? That's more work on both the players and developers, especially since you want to implement the class changes in a way it does not throw things out of balance or cause segregation. If a class is capable of avoiding unavoidable AoE damage, are they going to do less damage than jobs? Can we stack classes only to eliminate major chunks of an encounter? If someone needs to play a class to avoid AoE because they themselves cannot avoid it, but do less damage than a job, why would I ever decide to bring them in? Can a class do more damage in the long run because they can ignore mechanics like landslide, if so then why would i want a job in titan EX?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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"Ignore"/diminish the effects of the mechanic with proper prep IS the point of my proposed Class. It's pretty clear there are players that can't deal with it the normal way, i.e. dodging; which BTW pretty much negates the whole attack too.

I'm just suggesting an out for high ping players, such that they can negate the attack in other ways.

I asking for alternative ways to handle an encounter. There is no reason a fight has to be beat in one and only one way.

The gameplay is shifted from "dodging in the fight" to figuring out the right load out to deal with it - i.e. like in old school FF.

PS:

Have you ever played an old school FF?

PPS:

Also I don't know where you get the "unavoidable AoE" from. I was mainly talking about so called "dodgeable" AoE that is "undodgeable" for anyone with a high ping.

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unless you want them to be able to use that ability to dodge it everything and trivialize the encounter.

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This is also a tad amusing.

Pressing a movement key at the right time with a good connection the SE's server to dodge an attack = non-trivial

but

Figuring out what are needed skills and gear, collecting them if you don't have them, and figuring how to use them together effectively to negate an attack = trivial

OK ...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

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> So how are we diminishing/ignoring the effects of mechanics like levaithan's slams and landslide? If you fall off, it's all over. Dodging/avoiding a mechanic is entirely separate from pushing a button to diminish it (which ninja can already do with both levi and titan mind you, using shukchi and perfect dodge respectively). And are there any trade offs for this aside from "the long hard work"? Are these classes doing less overall dps, have less healing output, or is naturally less tanky?

> If they are frequently at high ping, heres the thing; are they meeting the minimal requirements, which includes broadband connection. If their ping is constantly at a high latency that they can't realistically do these encounters, then it's something on their end, either not meeting the minimum or just being distanced. And even then, high latency can still get in the way of negating these attacks unless its a persistent passive stat (which or may not lead to more problems with the above)

> Dodging and dealing with mechanics is already "figuring out" the fight. How you "beat the fight" is also varied depending on the boss. T6 has the LoS vs briar, as well as SS vs burn. T7 has stacking renauds, T8 has 1 tank vs 2 tanks, etc etc.

> I've played a couple of old school FFs, which are turn-based games. It's hard to make that jump unless I am missing something here.

Why do you insist on trying to apply turn-based RPG tactics to an action RPG?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Actually BLM can "bypass" landslide too with Manawall. Anyway whether you dodge it or bypass it with abilities, the result is the same. You stay on the platform, alive.

People not in the US have high ping. There is nothing they can do about it. It's not a problem with their setup. Currently they either get carried through the content or they don't play at all.

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Dodging and dealing with mechanics is already "figuring out" the fight.

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Yes, and there is nothing wrong with providing an alternative to "dodging" consisting of "more mechanics that need to be figured out".

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It's hard to make that jump unless I am missing something here.

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You do realise that you can't dodge in old school FF right? If a boss attacks with a one-shot, you pretty much have to work around with gear and skills of your own.

I would like the opportunity to "work around with gear and skills" boss attacks that require dodging.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

Why do you insist on trying to apply turn-based RPG tactics to an action RPG?

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The more interesting question is, why are you against it?

PS: BTW I will take a long time to answer. I have hit the daily post limit. :( I have to wait for more "post allowances" to come in. :p

I suppose they could impose a sort of reverse Aion thing where your stats temporarily decrease when you move. I'm not a fan of your solution. I usually use my Arcanist when soloing anyways. Nothing outside dungeons really threatens me anyways, so I might as well keep the few cross class slots open for things like the Truth of X skills.

My current issue with your plan is that what skill you say (knowing the fight and planning your skills to suit it) will only really apply to the first few people to come across the fight as any given class. Most of the rest will just look up a guide about how they should set up before the fight, and then just spend the fight hitting buttons. I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but I can see your solution just ending with industrialized laziness. My FC grinds me up so I get the skills, tells me which to set where for what fight, and then I'm basically walking around as a fancy beat stick.

How I miss the good old Final Fantasy games...
Till later, i will play the first "Star Ocean" again...
Something you can enjoy and dont have to "work" for...
Maybe "Gridania II", havnt played for a long time, or the good old FFV to get some drama...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

The more interesting question is, why are you against it?

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You think that's the more interesting question? You really think that you looking for something in the wrong genre is less unusual than the rest of us taking the game for what it is? If you want a game where you need to prepare in advance for specific fights I question your looking in FF at all, because that's never really been necessary except 2 cases in III that I recall. (Seriously, FF as a whole is quite easy aside from superbosses and this game is no exception; perhaps Shin Megami Tensei would be better for you? Unlike SE, Atlus doesn't go easy on you.)

If you can't dodge, quit. This is not the game for you.