White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

This thread went from "What is WHM Lacking" to "I'm losing my argument, scholar is better" from what I saw in OP's posts.

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Originally Posted by Slib

I'm trying to point out how Scholar can do things that a White Mage generally can not. Scholar brings MORE to the fight than a White Mage. Sure, the extra mitigation is nice. Is it necessary? No, as long as people stay alive. I do love having our White Mage there, but would would be even better was if he could put out as much DPS as I can in a raid fight while maintaining effective healing. For a White Mage, that is VERY risky and also will run you dry of MP fast in a long term fight.

What I am trying to get at is perfect play. I agree that having a white mage is nice, but it could be better and more on par with Scholar. Having a pet heal while you are dpsing and having Lustrates be your Guardian Angel is far better than tossing a Regen on the tank, swapping into Cleric Stance, then someone messes up and you have to Bene them because they got hit by Lunar Dynamo and they are about to get meteor striked. 5 Minute cooldown used when it could have been 2 of 3 charges that have a 1 minute cooldown.

You also don't always need magic defense in raids. Most of the painful magic AoE happens during a phase transition, like T9 and T11. That's where fey covenant takes over as being a staple in the Scholar utility, along with sacred soil and succor + 10% stoneskin (if needed)

Stop thinking that I think White Mage is completely USELESS. It just has a lot less Utility/Versatility than Scholar.

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8% protect, we don't need that mitigation shiz, oh wait ya I do let me do succor and fey covenant just to match your protect that last half an hour, whm is useless. It's not like they stack or anything and we could survive more.

WHM Can't dps as Hard as me? Obviously less utility. WHM is carrying me on heals while I just dps and hit my easy lustrate button and think eos is actually gonna save anyone? It's good to be a scholar and pretend I'm important. Mediocre DPS > Powerful healing set anyday.

Hard healing phase coming up? Every person on the field taken damage? Lets just pray they don't take anymore more until Fairy regen fills them up! WHM Filling all their hp up near instantly would be really bad here.

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Originally Posted by IceSpear

It seems like your extremely butt hurt about this kind of topic yet when the game first came out I remember everybody was hating on Scholar and White Mage was best for all content now it's the other way around in some peoples eyes.

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I play both healing roles myself and both have their strong points and weaknesses. While some more obvious than the other and some are to be taken for granted.

What's getting old, though, is the white-mage-hate-train going on in these forums. As is, the white mage class is getting the brunt of the enmity of the player base because majority can't play it right. It basically turned into a bully session while there's nothing wrong with the class itself, but more about the player base - In a few posts back I mentioned the LoL-effect.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I play both healing roles myself and both have their strong points and weaknesses. While some more obvious than the other and some are to be taken for granted.

What's getting old, though, is the white-mage-hate-train going on in these forums. As is, the white mage class is getting the brunt of the enmity of the player base because majority can't play it right. It basically turned into a bully session while there's nothing wrong with the class itself, but more about the player base - In a few posts back I mentioned the LoL-effect.

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Pretty much everything you say is right in this thread. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I play both healing roles myself and both have their strong points and weaknesses. While some more obvious than the other and some are to be taken for granted.

What's getting old, though, is the white-mage-hate-train going on in these forums. As is, the white mage class is getting the brunt of the enmity of the player base because majority can't play it right. It basically turned into a bully session while there's nothing wrong with the class itself, but more about the player base - In a few posts back I mentioned the LoL-effect.

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This right here. What most people also dont seem to realise is, in a raid, a whm has to be played so very tightly that its quite unforgiving to those who can't use it properly, whilst scholar can be played quite loosely, having both a fairy and lustrate to take some of the stress off the scholar (and please bare in mind i raid as a scholar). I use both healer classes as much as i can, and love it when i get to raid as a whm. Both classes are amazing, people need to start acknowledging this.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I play both healing roles myself and both have their strong points and weaknesses. While some more obvious than the other and some are to be taken for granted.

What's getting old, though, is the white-mage-hate-train going on in these forums. As is, the white mage class is getting the brunt of the enmity of the player base because majority can't play it right. It basically turned into a bully session while there's nothing wrong with the class itself, but more about the player base - In a few posts back I mentioned the LoL-effect.

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I also play both classes my self ad they do have their ups and down side, I'm just saying there's no need to be so butt hurt over the fact that someone thinks they're underpowered compared to Scholar. If you think about it Scholar has more utility than the average White Mage, they a stoneskin that heals and costs less and a healing bot they can go into low level dungeons summon Eos and do almost nothing if they wished and the fact that they can speed up the low level runs by dpsing too it's like a 5 man dungeon (when level 50 synced) a White Mage couldn't do that and even if they tried and had a good go it wouldn't nearly be as good as a Scholar can do it. As I said in my post before when the game came out everyone was hating on how bad Scholar was now it's White Mage who's getting hated on it's like this with the tank side in which tank class is better. A White Mage isn't going to save a tank that's about to take a big hit, but a Scholar can. A Scholar isn't going to get the whole raid back to max health in seconds, but a White Mage can they're both balanced enough so that one isn't greater than the other the OP can think what he likes, but in the end you+Eos can't save two tank and 5 dps nor can a White Mage, you can argue that a White Mage can, but if it's raid wide damage + a big hit two both tanks you'll only be able to save one.

For starters: please use punctuation. Those sentences are longer than the FFXIV:ARR maintenance durations.
Secondly: Why are you using low level dungeons as an example?
Thirdly: A good white mage won't -need- to save a tank from brink of death with proper techniques and vigilance, rather than eyeballing their HP bars - Remember when I mentioned about 90% of the white mages being bad?
Lastly: The scenario's you describe are strange. Raid wide damage + big hit on both tanks and only save one? A competent healer would wait healing the rest of the party and knows the tank has higher priority during that moment. Name an encounter where the entire group takes continuous damage while the tank(s) are both taking big hits at the same time. If it's an 8-player encounter, do include both their healer's roles and priorities.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

For starters: please use punctuation...

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You are dodging my point completely on all your posts. Let me repeat myself again...

Scholar can bring MORE UTILITY and DAMAGE to the group compared to a White Mage given the same scenarios.

Scholar has a Fairy that is healing while you are applying damage. You have off GCD healing to instantly play catch up in case someone got hit by something they shouldn't have or the tank took a large Crit that you did not expect him to take. White Mage CAN NOT DO THIS. I do not HATE White Mage. As a matter of fact, I LOVE them. I just happened to notice this large difference in Scholars ability to do MORE in a shorter time. Like Applying Damage and Healing at the same time. White Mages can't recover MP as FAST as a Scholar either, when Scholar spends LESS MP too while healing efficiently.

Yes, White Mage is fine as it is with the current content and it can get through it, but it is not a Cookie Cutter class. It gets heavily outweighed by Scholars ability to do more at once and the faster the bosses or adds die, the better off you are.

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Originally Posted by Slib

Snip

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And you're not acknowledging my posts either concerning your passive-aggressive white mage hate - As well as majority of the player base. Be it saying you love them or not, you're putting them down like a feminist-wanna-be would put down a man. But sure, back to Utility then.

Name the utilities, their utilisation and how they are actually helpful utility rather than obsolete utility. Oh, and before I forget: Don't compare either skill kits for X situation during Y moment.

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Originally Posted by Slib

White Mage CAN NOT DO THIS.

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Its called regen.

Also, your argument up until this point has been scholar>whm, which you justify with some highly tenuous circumstances. Even when the huge flaws in your arguments are pointed out, you back track and change what you are saying.

Also doing more does not make it greater/better suited to heal. Potency>doing more. Doing the right thing at the right time>doing more. Knowing how to heal>doing more.

The argument that the faster the bosses die, the better off you are is hilarious. This means 2 things: 1) you are most likely using selene and not eos, therefore are gimping your healing potency, 2) you are in cleric stance, using lustrate as your main heal. You know what this means.....the WHM is doing the majority of the healing for you, meaning the whm you are running with is awesome, and you can not see the forest for the trees when it comes to who is healing what.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Its called regen....

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Regen doesn't come close to what Eos heals for on a single target. It's nice you can roll it on to others tho. Also, I do not use Selene to increase the DPS Output. With the bonus healing that Eos can get and AoE heal itself, you would have to heal less meaning more uptime for your dps. If you had a Black mage I could see using Selene to buff their spell speed (SMN would hate this), but TP Users will burn tp faster ending with tp starving eventually with skill speed boost, as I hear this all the time in my group without Selene. So Selene is generally not as good as it sounds in a long term fight (10 min +)

As for me back tracking and changing what I'm saying, I'm trying to explain myself better as to why I made this thread in the first place.

And yes, the faster trash mobs die in a big pull, the easier it is to heal through it. This is a perfect example...
White Mage Holy spam in dungeons. Toss a stoneskin on the tank, eye for eye, let him do his big pull, divine seal regen him at the end when he tags everything. Maybe do a cure 2 to top him up if needed. Then you presence of mind, cleric stance, holy spam. Stunning them and doing that extra AoE damage goes a long way in how much total damage the tank will take.

Pushing phases faster like T9 also does this too. For instance, the heavens fall phase. One add instead of two. The faster it dies, the better off you are.

As long as people are alive, you are doing it right. The more you can output with damage, the faster the fights go. Adds die faster. Less Healing needed overall.

What do you not see here?