How "Vote to Dismiss" is designed encourages abuse.

#1 30min harsher penalty is ABSOLUTELY necessary. You want to drop the group then you suffer the penalty. If someone in your group is trolling and not doing a good job, then you "vote dismiss"
I remember the 15 min penalty and people didn't care about it, and would just constantly drop group to get the dungeon they wanted or leave one they did not want. (Pharos Sirius) It was way worse than the current state of affairs.

#2 Don't start a fight if you are planning on Vote Dismissing. In ST it doesn't matter if 1 person is a goofball, you just overpower that crap, and if you die because of him, you guess what "vote dismiss" after the fight. He would be dumb to risk this because losing out on an Oil roll is pretty huge.

#3 This is an unfortunate situation and I do agree something should be implemented to prevent this.

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

There are a couple key problems:

#1:

Originally, when abandoning a Duty, you only took a 15 minute lockout. That's not so bad, but prevents you from dropping instantly every time. Now it's an incredibly long 30 minutes. You'd think this would prevent people from dropping, but the reality is that now people will just troll you/go afk/etc. until you dismiss them. The problem here is that you can't add a timer to people who got dismissed, because then when it's used unfairly people are going to be furious, that 10 minute timer to reset. and also now instead of the intent of making people stick with the run instead of eating the timer, people are now actively hindering the run and actually making it worse for the people who want to do the run instead of better.

This happens... a LOT.

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There is already a countermeasure in place that kicks players out of the duty (with 30 minute penalty) if that person is idle for 10 minutes. I don't think this isn't enough personalty. I think that player needs to generate some kind of enmity on a mob for that 10 minute timer to reset.

Sometimes i think their needs to be a check on the reason for dismissing, my sister got booted out of a bray (normal) run because she was trying to teach the tank how to properly mark targets this clearly upset him and the healer friend he has (because he was blindly defending his ignorance) and they voted her out simply because they disagreed with what she said. thankfully you can't boot people who have lots on loot because they tried it while one was in the pool because no one moved and the kick didn't happen till after it dropped, (which she won)

when dumb stuff like this happens they really need to set some rules on who actually get's dismissed, like character not moving for set amount of time before using AFK choice, same with offline, the other one is self explanatory.

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Originally Posted by Darki

There is already a countermeasure in place that kicks players out of the duty (with 30 minute penalty) if that person is idle for 10 minutes. I don't think this isn't enough personalty. I think that player needs to generate some kind of enmity on a mob for that 10 minute timer to reset.

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It's actually 2 minutes. Not 10.
I've seen people kicked out of Frontlines because there's a 2 minute prep time before you engage. People leave due to AFK as soon as we begin. There isn't a lot for tanks or DPS to do during the prep time, so unless they're moving around or engaging in the alliance chat they'll be removed before the fun begins. It's hilarious in it's own special way.

So what's the alternative?

All anyone advocating the idea that the vote/kick system is broken or "encourages abuse" are bringing is anecdotes. Well, here's more: I have personally witnessed someone abusing the vote/kick system to their advantage exactly once.

On the other hand, I have been in parties where the system was absolutely NEEDED to deal with someone who was being a blatant troll and/or harassing other players several times. At least 4 that I can think of. What would the alternative be to the current system that wouldn't make it needlessly (and unfairly) hard for others in the party to simply get rid of a troll or abusive player?

Without getting into the whole "programming vs. design/can the system encouraging behavior" debate, I think Donjo has the right of it when he says that no matter HOW the system works, there will be some people that find a way to abuse it and then do so. There is no perfect system. So with that in mind, the system as it is now allows for some abuse, yes. But it also works well for its intended purpose. Given what I've seen in some of the truly horrendous runs I referenced above, I certainly wouldn't want to go back to how things were before, with no way to remove someone like that.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Encourage... people really need to stop using that word. A system within a game is not sentient. It cannot wave its arms and tell you "Hey, do this abusive thing with me! Please?"

A system cannot encourage players to do something. All it can do is possess an option; an option that not everybody is going to take.

It is true that the Vote Dismiss allowing for these kinds of situations is bad. However, the system isn't encouraging players to use it in the manners. The players are encouraging each other to use it in these manners. The offline afker is encouraging his party members to kick him by being absent from the dungeon. The intentional lockout is just being a jerk and would be able to do this whether kicking was possible or not.

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Sentience has nothing to do with encouragement. Anything at all that affects your choice in any situation can be considered to have encouraged or discouraged that choice. The simple fact here is that the 30 min lockout penalty was designed to discourage people from leaving the duty finder early but instead the vote-kick circumvents this lockout and thus encourages bad behaviour in some individuals in order to get themselves kicked so as to save time.

In future, before going off on an unrelated tangent please ensure you know what you're talking about.

With regards to the OP I'm in full agreement with you but I'm not sure what can be done about it. Allowing kicking during combat or at other times currently restricted would only serve to facilitate kicking people just before looting to guarantee drops...

Kicked players also should be automatically blacklisted and thus prevented from rejoining in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

This is wrong. People respond to systems as they are designed. If a system encourages abuse, then people will abuse it.

For example, laws and punishments encourage people to behave properly. You are arguing that rule of law, a fundamental aspect of modern civilization, is unnecessary. (Research the Magna Carta.)

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It is not the law itself which encourages or discourages behavior, but the consequences for breaking them... which are applied by a party outside of the actual "working system" of the law. If a consequence is perceived as not being severe enough, the law is ignored. Thus, they are connected, but not identical. Can you truly say that a law can encourage people to break it when its words explicitly say "don't do it"? It is not the law itself that encourages or discourages action, but the perpetrator's view of the consequence of breaking it. The vote kick system is analogous to a set of laws, dictating when you can or cannot use it. The consequence of being kicked, naturally, is leaving the instance and therefore being unable to complete it. Because this consequence can be seen as a blessing by certain people, there is certainly an issue because the perceived lack of a consequence naturally leads to these people having no qualms toward getting kicked. This is the same with people who wait for situations in which vote kick is unable to be used. The consequence of being a jerk to a party is being kicked, so the absence of this consequence encourages certain people to be jerks.

Therefore, the statement "The vote kick system encourages abuse" is false because the system is referring to more than just the consequences of being kicked, which are the only component which encourages or discourages behavior. Perhaps a better name for this thread should be "Players Aren't Punished Enough for Being Kicked", as that's where the true issue is.

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FFXIV endgame is designed around grinding. Grinding isn't fun. This encourages players to reduce effort grinding.

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You are disguising opinion as fact. Some people enjoy grinding, therefore your point is false. (Research proper methods of persuasion.)

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The ability to abuse vote kick, combined with the motivation to reduce effort (as well as other motivations: bored, jerk, etc), results in people abusing vote kick. To fix the problem, the system can remove the motivation, discourage the behavior with punishments, or change vote kick so that it cannot be abused.

People will respond to the new system design by changing their behavior.

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The only way to fully prevent vote kick abuse is to completely remove the option. All you're trying to ask for is for additional restrictions to be placed on the system. Things like "getting kicked activates the early leaver penalty" are relatively easy to do and arguably should absolutely be done. But, imagine if things like this happened:

Subset: You must prove that the reason you wish to kick someone is true before they can be kicked.
1. To kick someone for Harassment, you have to submit the chat log and/or a video to a GM for real time review before it can be completed.
2. To kick someone for being Offline, they have to have been offline for 10 minutes.
3. To kick someone for AFK, they must have been in the AFK status for 10 minutes.
4. To kick someone for Cheating, you have to submit a video/screenshot of the action to a GM for real time review before it can be completed.

Subset: Severe punishments for the kicked.
5. 3 kicks over your life is a talk from a GM. 6 kicks is a Temporary Suspension. 9 kicks is a Permanent Ban. 1 kick is removed from your record per month.
6. Someone who is kicked is automatically added to the blacklist of everyone to clicked Yes, regardless of the reason for the kick.
7. Every "early leaver" penalty applied to you tentuples in length each consecutive time you receive it, ie. 30 min -> 300 -> 3000. This multiplier is reset at the weekly reset.

I know I certainly wouldn't want these kinds of things to happen. Right now, we have a system that is incredibly easy to use for the people who are using it correctly and the problems people see in it are small in comparison. The more complex a law, the harder it is to enforce and the less severe the consequences are perceived. The point here is that you should be careful what you wish for, for it may get granted in a way you don't expect.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Sentience has nothing to do with encouragement. Anything at all that affects your choice in any situation can be considered to have encouraged or discouraged that choice. The simple fact here is that the 30 min lockout penalty was designed to discourage people from leaving the duty finder early but instead the vote-kick circumvents this lockout and thus encourages bad behaviour in some individuals in order to get themselves kicked so as to save time.

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Sure, I may have jumped the shark with that whole sentience thing, but that's for another time. Otherwise, I agree with you here. The issue is the consequences, not the actual act of kicking and the systems which allow it.

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With regards to the OP I'm in full agreement with you but I'm not sure what can be done about it. Allowing kicking during combat or at other times currently restricted would only serve to facilitate kicking people just before looting to guarantee drops...

Kicked players also should be automatically blacklisted and thus prevented from rejoining in my opinion.

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Any increases to punishment right now are, yes, risky. Only those who were jerks should be actively punished for being kicked, not the innocent player who actually had their internet go out for five minutes. We can try looking at each of the "reasons" in slightly more detail though.

1. Harassment: If anyone was kicked for this reason, they should be punished.
2. Offline: This could be because of a genuine internet outage or game crash, or it could be someone who logged off intentionally to get kicked.
3. AFK: This could be someone who was attacked by Real Life in the middle of a dungeon, or it could be someone who is just standing still waiting to get kicked or just being a troll.
4. Cheating: These allegations definitely need proof. If anyone was kicked for this reason and proven to be actually cheating, it's ban territory.

Aside from the grey areas for 2 and 3, the "auto-punishment" of 1 could be abused to give even the innocent players penalties. Is there truly anything SE can do to crack down on all of this without catching innocent players in the crossfire? I don't know. Things like this could be attempted though:

1. In situations where kicking is currently outlawed, it becomes allowed but a 100% vote is necessary to kick someone(ie. 3/4 or 7/8). If a premade party composes this entire majority, kicking will remain impossible.
1a. Kicking will remain outlawed during Trial battles, as it is impossible to lock yourself out and a kick can easily occur after a jerk causes a wipe.
2. If you have been kicked from an instance, you cannot return to the instance you were kicked from. Alternately(if it's too difficult to flag you as unable to join a previous instance), the cooldown on initiating a vote kick does not apply to kicking the same person additional times until you leave the instance.

Not to wade in too late on, but I have been kicked for silly reasons, like just before the last boss so the other 3 could make room for a friend that wasn't ready when they joined. I was livid, I had spent 25-30 mins chatting happily, doing my job then suddenly its 'sorry dude, our friend is ready to join us, no offence.'

I got no reward for my effort, had to start over and had no recourse apart from reporting said players, only to get a system message hours later asking for exact time stamps and names, servers ect. I'm on ps4, I don't know if the chat logs go far back on PC by I'm lucky if it saves the last half hour if I'm active doing things after.

We can give commendations, why can't we do the opposite and give the odd disapproval. Then lump those idiots with lots of disapproval ratings together so they can kick each other to their hearts content without ruining it for everyone else

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It's actually 2 minutes. Not 10.
I've seen people kicked out of Frontlines because there's a 2 minute prep time before you engage. People leave due to AFK as soon as we begin. There isn't a lot for tanks or DPS to do during the prep time, so unless they're moving around or engaging in the alliance chat they'll be removed before the fun begins. It's hilarious in it's own special way.

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My mistake.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

lots of stuff

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So ... you agree systems impact how people behave, and then discuss ways systems discourage or encourage behavior. You agree but keep arguing.

It seems like what you meant to say was that you don't think the system should be changed much, because you feel that the majority of time, vote kick is not abused, and that additional punishments and restrictions would go overboard. That's a good point, but you made a generalization about systems not being able to encourage or discourage behavior, which was wrong.

Also, now you're aware that people grind in MMOs but also seek the path of least resistance to minimize effort (through things like vote kick abuse). This is why systems have to be designed with consideration for the types of behavior they motivate and allow.