SMN BIS 2.3

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Originally Posted by Dwill

1) There is no Spell Speed bug. It was confirmed by the Square Enix that Spell Speed does not affect pet and that they don't have any plans to change that.

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Looking further into this as of current, this was replaced with the current system. Previously, SS was factoring into pet skills and was detailed on the cooldowns the same. Whether is was fundamentally wrong initially or simply changed later, it is claimed to be working as intended now, despite still being an active bug being looked into according to the forums. ( but let's just call that laziness)

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

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But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class and even attempting to do so if you geared purely for SS, would only hurt you overall anyway. If you cannot fit in a full extra cast per 10 (Fester CD) seconds, your benefiting nothing from SS. Go as low as 350 SS or as high as 450, on average you will do less damage overall in builds supplying high amounts of SS, and still will not get an additional cast in per 10 seconds. If you want to take full advantage of what your saying you literally would do Bio2 ->Miasma -> Bio -> Ruin Spam till you have to recast your DoTs again.

If that's your rotation and your not weaving in Rouse, Spur, Enkindle, Ruin2 + Fester, you are already not in an optimal skill rotation. Weaving in these skills, will largely not even touch the GCD when done correctly (have you waiting for the GCD to come up). SS is near useless not because it's not working as intended, but because the way you should be playing the class doesn't benefit from it.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class and even attempting to do so if you geared purely for SS, would only hurt you overall anyway. If you cannot fit in a full extra cast per 10 seconds, your benefiting nothing from SS. Go as low as 350 SS or as high as 450, on average you will do less damage overall in builds supplying high amounts of SS, and still will not get an additional cast in per 10 seconds. If you want to take full advantage of what your saying you literally would do Bio2 ->Miasma -> Bio -> Ruin Spam till you have to recast your DoTs again.

If that's your rotation and your not weaving in Rouse, Spur, Enkindle, Ruin2 + Fester, you are already not in an optimal skill rotation. Weaving in these skills, will largely not even touch the GCD when done correctly (have you waiting for the GCD to come up). SS is near useless not because it's not working as intended, but because the way you should be playing the class doesn't benefit from it.

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Nobody's going to argue that stacking Spell Speed on Summoner is a terrible idea. But the stat itself isn't as useless as you make it out to be. Saying that amount of spells you can fit in 10 seconds is all good but you're not factoring in the fact that Spell Speed helps you reapply your DoTs faster after being affected by certain mechanics (Gaols in Titan Extreme or Scyla's Frozen Orb for examples) as well as helping you get off certain casts before you have to move, whether it's to avoid an AoE or while kiting.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Nobody's going to argue that stacking Spell Speed on Summoner is a terrible idea. But the stat itself isn't as useless as you make it out to be. Saying that amount of spells you can fit in 10 seconds is all good but you're not factoring in the fact that Spell Speed helps you reapply your DoTs faster after being affected by certain mechanics (Gaols in Titan Extreme or Scyla's Frozen Orb for examples) as well as helping you get off certain casts before you have to move, whether it's to avoid an AoE or while kiting.

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Because most of these fights are scripted, you should in fact memorize when to clip some Dots on certain fights right before unavoidable moments, (Goals or Meteor Streams) in T9 is a good example. If timed appropriately you will rarely run into the moments you describe. Im fairly sure a majority of summoners only use Swiftcast for shadow flare and ressing as well. Not many think to use it when reapplying DoTs in the exact scenarios you describe. Yes it reduces Casting time of Bio2 -> Miasma and that's really all it does.

On an off note, with my current build I sit at 404 SS. I pretty much have a static rotation of skills on T9 and honestly when I've went as low as about 360ish or as high as 450ish, I've never noticed any difference of what I was able to achieve on my casts in accordance to the timing of the fight.

Moments such as when YanderePrincess is describing, more running into the GCD (waiting for it) to cast you next skill, should in general not happen as majority of the time, if not all the time, you should burn an OFF GCD skill while you wait so that when your finished with the animation of that skill, your GCD is already up. Basically buffering.

Going to agree with Havenchild on the SS part. Not only is the Weight of SS super low for Summoner, but because optimizing damage includes micro-managing the pet during Recast times, anything that shortens that window is bad for Summoner.
Not including Summoners instant cast skills as well, that while are off GCD still have an animation delay+the time it takes a player to use them.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Because most of these fights are scripted, you should in fact memorize when to clip some Dots on certain fights right before unavoidable moments, (Goals or Meteor Streams) in T9 is a good example. If timed appropriately you will rarely run into the moments you describe. Im fairly sure a majority of summoners only use Swiftcast for shadow flare and ressing as well. Not many think to use it when reapplying DoTs in the exact scenarios you describe. Yes it reduces Casting time of Bio2 -> Miasma and that's really all it does.

On an off note, with my current build I sit at 404 SS. I pretty much have a static rotation of skills on T9 and honestly when I've went as low as about 360ish or as high as 450ish, I've never noticed any difference of what I was able to achieve on my casts in accordance to the timing of the fight.

Moments such as when YanderePrincess is describing, more running into the GCD (waiting for it) to cast you next skill, should in general not happen as majority of the time, if not all the time, you should burn an OFF GCD skill while you wait so that when your finished with the animation of that skill, your GCD is already up. Basically buffering.

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I agree to a degree but there are and will always be a time where clipping will not be an option or where a mechanic will choose you randomly. Not saying these moments are a common thing but they do happen once every so often and that's where Spell Speed is mildly useful.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I agree to a degree but there are and will always be a time where clipping will not be an option or where a mechanic will choose you randomly. Not saying these moments are a common thing but they do happen once every so often and that's where Spell Speed is mildly useful.

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Please elighten me on what fight in coil that happens in, cause bis is for coil not dngs, st, etc.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class

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Oh, I understand that completely. There is too much of SMN's damage that is almost entirely unaffected by SS (there's a very -very- tiny effect on DoT spells, but it's just a matter of being able to get your initial application of DoTs onto the target a fraction of a second faster and is thus negligible at best, and depending on how exactly DoT application works, completely irrelevant at worst).

My point was simply the fact that Ruin II and Bio being instant-cast has no bearing on the weight of spell speed, because what matters from SS is primarily the lower GCD, not the lower casting time. If what you had said about Ruin II and Bio were true, then Firestarter procs and Thundercloud procs on BLM would also significantly diminish the benefit of SS, but they don't.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Moments such as when YanderePrincess is describing, more running into the GCD (waiting for it) to cast you next skill, should in general not happen as majority of the time, if not all the time, you should burn an OFF GCD skill while you wait so that when your finished with the animation of that skill, your GCD is already up. Basically buffering.

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Weaving OGCD abilities in after instant-cast spells really has nothing to do with the value of SS. OGCD abilities, except for Dragoon's Jump/Spineshatter Dive/Dragonfire Dive and Monk's Shoulder Tackle, only take about .5s to go off, regardless of animation. After that, you can simply clip the animation as you begin your next spell if your GCD is up. Likewise, you can clip the animation of your instant cast spells with the animation from OGCD abilities. All-in-all, even if you had enough SS to drop your GCD to 1.5s, you shouldn't lose anytime on using an OGCD in between an Instant-Cast spell and your next spell.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Weaving OGCD abilities in after instant-cast spells really has nothing to do with the value of SS. OGCD abilities, except for Dragoon's Jump/Spineshatter Dive/Dragonfire Dive and Monk's Shoulder Tackle, only take about .5s to go off, regardless of animation. After that, you can simply clip the animation as you begin your next spell if your GCD is up. Likewise, you can clip the animation of your instant cast spells with the animation from OGCD abilities. All-in-all, even if you had enough SS to drop your GCD to 1.5s, you shouldn't lose anytime on using an OGCD in between an Instant-Cast spell and your next spell.

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Yes, but you have to consider micro managing your pet on top of OGCD abilities. Any loss in using a GCD skill from shortening the Recast time is wasted damage. (Fester+Contagion, Rouse/Spur Aerial Slash, Bane)

Spell Speed is completely counter productive to SMN design and is a terrible stat.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Please elighten me on what fight in coil that happens in, cause bis is for coil not dngs, st, etc.

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Breaking Vines in T6 and Cursed Shriek in T7 are examples.

And BiS, while obviously most helpful in raids (considering you actually need to raid to obtain it) is for everything.