More Raid content please!

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Originally Posted by Roris

"A raid is a type of mission in a video game in which a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game) attempt to defeat a boss monster". Note that "amount of people used for most dungeons due to convenience" doesn't equal to normal. The normal amount of people you can fit into a party without using alliances is 8, you can't even use an LB3 with a light party.

Dungeons also imply you know, running through a dungeon, not just a single boss fight in a mostly round or square arena. You're right though, it is semantics, semantics to twist Coil into fitting in the definition of a raid, that's all it is.

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When I think of a raid I think of a fight much more challenging than the rest of the game that can consist of either one really powerful boss or multiple segments each with their own boss leading up to a really powerful one.(Independent of party size because more often than not, adding more people just makes the likelihood of error higher which in an entirely artificial increase in difficulty) Your right though, obviously my definition of raid is wrong and yours is the only one that could ever be correct.

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Originally Posted by Roris

"A raid is a type of mission in a video game in which a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game) attempt to defeat a boss monster". Note that "amount of people used for most dungeons due to convenience" doesn't equal to normal. The normal amount of people you can fit into a party without using alliances is 8, you can't even use an LB3 with a light party.

Dungeons also imply you know, running through a dungeon, not just a single boss fight in a mostly round or square arena. You're right though, it is semantics, semantics to twist Coil into fitting in the definition of a raid, that's all it is.

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You should tell that Wikipedia article, the one you got that lovely quote from, that they should remove FFXIV from their list of games that comply with said definition. After all, you don't feel it applies and we can't have that now. :)

@Roth: Your "multi full party" requirement to be called raiding just doesn't fit into this game. You can ask for more CT level raiding, there is nothing wrong with that, but the fact remains that CoB and SCoB are raids within this game.

Its purely based on number of participants within the framework of the game. This game has two group sizes : the 4 man Light Party, and the 8 man Full Party.

Is it hard to understand that the definition of "raid" is "multiple groups" (or, in FF14 terms, multiple "parties") and has nothing to do with the difficulty of the encounter(s)?

Either all 8 man content is group content. Or all 8 man content is raid content. Castrum, Praetorium, Titan Extreme, Garuda Hard .. if these 8 man pieces of content are group, then other 8 man pieces of content must also be group, which includes Binding Coil. If, however, you want to call an 8 man "full party" a raid, then ALL such instances of 8 man partying are raiding, whether you are raiding level 7 FATEs in some newbie zone, or raiding Castrum, or Ultima Weapon Hard, or Binding Coil.

Since the vast majority of 8 man content is considered group, however, and not raid .. then there is only one raid in FF14 ATM, and that is Crystal Tower, with Binding Coil being group content. Which brings me back to my initial post : we need more raid (multiple Full Party) content!

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Originally Posted by Archulak

When I think of a raid I think of a fight much more challenging than the rest of the game that can consist of either one really powerful boss or multiple segments each with their own boss leading up to a really powerful one.(Independent of party size because more often than not, adding more people just makes the likelihood of error higher which in an entirely artificial increase in difficulty) Your right though, obviously my definition of raid is wrong and yours is the only one that could ever be correct.

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When a raid is initially introduced, then it should be more challenging than group content. However, as the game goes on, and more content is added, older raids remain just as difficult while character power grows, eventually leading to raids that were challenging initially being soloable. They are still raids, designed for multiple groups. They just get decrepit in their old age.

Whether you are talking EQ's 6 man group, FF14's 4 and 8 man Light and Full Parties, or something else. The difference between "group" and "raid" content is that "raid" content is designed for more than one group when it is first released.

Labrynth of the Ancients was great when you had every team working together to beat the whole instance. Annoying at times when you had a few trolls, but still doable. And last time I checked it was dominated by trolls and practically unplayable because everybody who did it back when it was new and relevant has no use for it anymore.

I actually kinda feel bad for newer players that might want to do it, having to struggle through uncooperative parties and a mass of trolls in the hope of successfully completing it.

But it's still a raid, by definition and by design.

Though, I do agree that the game needs more than 2 raid dungeons. I say 2 because while Coil might have many turns, it's still just one raid encounter. And then there's Crystal Tower which I also count as 1 raid even though it will have multiple separate levels to it.

This is maybe one of the few areas, in my opinion, that FFXIV:ARR falls short. I do love the direction ARR is going for the most part and personally will be playing for a good long while. There should have been three endgame raids, minimum, at launch. Instead, we have Primal Battles which are just boss fights with no exploration or anything. They just feel kind of cheap, even if they are made difficult, it's still just a solo boss fight.. evey, single, one of them. While good to have, it doesn't replace a raid and yet that is what has happened. These Primal battles would be better suited as lass bosses for a raid that leads up to that big fight. Coils and CT are the only instances where boss fights actually take some real effort in order to beat.

In my opinion, there are a few things this game needs: 1) multiple party dungeons (not limited to just Crystal Tower floors), 2) Normal dungeons that are not specifically tied to main scenario content that require a full (8 man) party in order to do, 3) more variety in "Hardest difficulty" dungeons (not limited to just Binding Coil of Bahamut), and 4) some non-instanced multi-leveled "difficult" areas (Where it would be very hard to solo things even as a Summoner) where it would be suggested that 2-4 players at minimum could relatively make progress through in order to explore a new area or (insert another good reason to explore a new area besides "exploration").

Raid to me is anything above 20 players. That can be subjective of course. Some people consider coil (8 man) stuff to be a raid.
Anyway...

I'd much rather see a larger variety of 4 man (party) content and open world content (that's locked to 4-8 players upon engaging) than raids.
I don't think raids work for this game as well as they do for other similar MMO.

God I love threads like these. Always good for a few Sunday laughs ^_^

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Originally Posted by Tashigi

Raid to me is anything above 20 players. That can be subjective of course. Some people consider coil (8 man) stuff to be a raid.
Anyway...

I'd much rather see a larger variety of 4 man (party) content and open world content (that's locked to 4-8 players upon engaging) than raids.
I don't think raids work for this game as well as they do for other similar MMO.

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I don't feel that Coil is a raid personally, moreso than that they (all of Coil) are the only hard instances in the game that utilizes an actual full 8-man party. Which is good, we need more 8 man content.. it just doesn't have to quite be at Coil difficulty (accuracy restrictions, etc.) but should be harder than current dungeons are at i100.

To be honest Crystal Tower is the only real raid this game has at the moment. And yes, I too feel actual raids require more than 1 party of players. We also don't even have any raids that raiding FC's can really do because there is no way to form an alliance before going into a raiding instance/dungeon. So that kind of defeats the purpose of big raids, in that, you will never be able to do the whole thing with a group of competent players that you know and that are all in your FC or Server. Which, quite frankly, was a really stupid design move and should be changed.

Having the option to DF it is fine and all, but there should also be the option to have a full pre-made group for raids. (24 players)

Raid, as deemed by SE, is content that requires full party but can not simultaneously be a trial (primals). So deal with it. You can argue semantics all day but that doesn't change what SE has set. Also, more than 8 people content would be a nightmare to set up and content is generally dumbed down to accommodate that many people.

The Japanese basically it, "Bahamut's Dungeon: Encounter 1-5" (for Binding Coil turns 1-5) and "Bahamut's Dungeon: Invasion 1-4" (Second Coil of Bahamut turns 1-4).

You don't need massive amounts of people for it to count as a raid. That said you didn't even mention the second coil of bahamut. I can only assume you ignored it because it automatically refutes your post entirely.