carrying unskilled healers..

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Originally Posted by Odd

Not necessarily.

I would argue that the one ending with no MP is doing something wrong.

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I would argue that the one with no MP is having more DPS uptime and the other is standing idle.

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

in a static that will be discussed, in a pug you just cant trust anyone and you do your best to cover everything..
coil1&4 are so much easier if you assign heals, but in a lot of fights MT just means "i'll be taking damage pretty much all the time" and OT means "i'll pick up adds and stuff", so the guy assigned to OT healing would spend a lot of time helping with MT whenever they know OT isn't in danger

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Yeahhh this is something that shows really clearly in a situation like T1 where you have something that hits damn hard on both tanks. I know the WHM I usually run with has had to take up the slack for undergeared healers (or those that are not paying attention or don't know their skills), keeping me up on MT while simultaneously healing the OT as well. It's pretty stressful for her to have to solo heal in what should be a really easy clear.

A healer is as good as a tank goes, a tank is as good as a healer goes, in between you have knowledge, understanding, experience and gears that come into play.

In short, one without the other is close to impossible to go ahead in any dungeons (healer being any and all that can heal decently)

Just me though

Mei

OP, if you are a very good healer it means most likely you meet healers that are not as good as you are. It might also be you just think you are better than the ones you meet :-), well, if you spend a lot of your time curing and raising the other healer, you are better than him for sure.

About playing as if you were the only healer with PUGs, really you are acting in a situation in which the other healer is already doing things, so you won't cure/raise somebody who does not need it if he has already been cured/raised. The problem is doing the same thing at the same time than the other healer and wasting time and mp. But with no previous coordination that is a risk you take. I agree I wouldn't play expecting the other healer to do this or that, you just adapt to what is happening, the other healer also adapts, and usually it goes well. If you see the other healer is in Cleric Stance and using Holy against a big group of mobs, you don't do that and focus on monitoring the group and heal the ones who need it, the other healer included, for example, or viceversa.

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Originally Posted by Aloreal

What i find its good if a sch takes tanks and the whm takes the rest of the party. not in all situations im sure but cause i enter as a sch mostly when i know i can handle tanks on my own i do it and i say so. if its a phase with adds the other one will cover of OT other than that tanks are mine.

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My SCH buddy and I take a much different approach. We either are both keeping tanks up and party to a certain degree - with him being primary over keeping tanks up and me being primary on raid healing -- OR I will take over most heals while he goes into DPS mode, especially in T8 since that fight is so easy to do it in. His fairy still heals and he can use lustrate while in cleric's. He'll swap for heavy incoming damage phases and swap back afterwards.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

OP, if you are a very good healer it means most likely you meet healers that are not as good as you are. It might also be you just think you are better than the ones you meet :-), well, if you spend a lot of your time curing and raising the other healer, you are better than him for sure.

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I have healed enough to know that there are many high ilvl healers out there who get 'carried' a lot without knowing it, and their partners has to work extra hard to pull things off if other members in the group has so-so average performance, often 'for nothing'.

I want to see whether it's possible to establish a standard to quantify healer performance in raid content, so the good ones get their due credits, and not-so-good ones understand they need improvement, just like we expect dps go above certain number at certain ilvl for each class.

There isn't such a thing as a "healing standard". AFter 7 years of healing in different MMOs I can say - healing is a very subjective kind of thing. One healer lets ppl fall to a certain point before he starts casting anything, an other healer does it earlier and another one casts his spell so early to top of the incoming damage immidiatly.
Healers also do have to have certain knowledge "basics" - the have to know the encounter, where they can stand, have to have everyone in LoS, when to use which spell and/or CD to be effective, have to know what (THEIR) tanks are capable of (e.g. the CDs, what they do etc.)...
My best points are the first 3 - mostly because I use CDs like Benediction rarely and I can't get all the infos about the Tank-CDs in my head. Everything else is reading&understanding. Also: trial&error.

For my experiences, i will use CT:LotA as an example. As a SCH, if I am in a group with another SCH I know I will need to be healing more often, while with a whm I obviously take back seat to the big heals, I heal the small heals and adlo/succor when needed. But i dont sweat my heals unless I see the whm letting tanks get to 50%>. I am the one though that calls for healer roles like on Thantalos or other split group fights in range, such as who looks after pot and who wants the field. When I do this our group runs smoothly and times see other groups pot die due to no one capping the pot. Also during KB i will usually ask do you want to heal, though had one group with an idiot of a tank blast me for asking other healer, you main heal mt or ot? I said "mt or ot" as a healer and our group was IG and KB tanks, a member broadcasts to alliance "omfg dude just asked who mt and ot is after we established it we will wipe". Annoyed me because he miss understood my question. But we end up clearing but anyways. At times if one healer is capping hp of all members efficiently the other healer will look bad but its because he would just being OH for no reason hence looks like he is slacking.

Edit: I also have to agree especially in 4 man groups, tanks and their cooldowns make a huge difference. After running many of a wide spectrum of FloxHM I have had smooth fast runs where the tank used cd's appropriately and I could keep the team alive, I dont get 1 shot glided and my mp pool isnt devastated trying to keep a tank who 1) doesnt wait for buffs and 2) doesnt use cd's or 3 pulls more than the group set up can handle. I have had these kinds of runs... One end smoothno deaths fast speed run where the pug just knew their roles and cd's to groups that wipe before the ramp at entrance due to impatience and not playing job or dodging effectively.

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Originally Posted by Lanceton

... many unskilled healers out there that need carrying from skilled healers...

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Just got an idea, if it is recongnized by HP healed, so will the fight turn into a healing race between healers?
(just like some dpsers use to say "it's dps race" then ignore everything and racing with another dps ^^;
Btw, a skilled healer can carry the whole group and a group can carry an unskilled healer as well?

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

Or that they're severely overhealing.

Healers should have zero problems sustaining their MP assuming no deaths.

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Or that could also be due to the team inability to dodge and/or the dps attacking mobs and grabbing aggro. As for the Op, it's called learning. People should try to help inexperienced players instead of insulting and/or complaining about them.