with this mindset the future looks dim

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

This.

OP is basically expecting other players to do what they could have done for themselves. No one can demand that others teach them, especially strangers in duty finder. As it is no-ones obligation to explain every mechanic. Especially when that information is freely available.

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Yup. The severity of what you're asking to be explained is important too.

I'm happy to teach newcomers; I've explained Crystal Tower like three times over and that's not exactly mechanics-lite - but it is short bursts of content. It's not hard to take 20 seconds to explain the entirity of the Bone Dragon fight.

Trying to explain the entirity of the mechanics of Turn 4 or especially 5, given that it's several phases with distinct methods and mechanics that all have to be executed one after another, that is a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

And all that's great...in single player games.

It's common courtesy, MMO or elsewhere, to do simple things that prevent you from wasting other peoples' time in group activities.

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Let me adjust that "It's common nowadays, MMO or elsewhere, to watch videos".....When MMOs were new, and before the dreaded WoW....NOBODY looked at videos, read write ups...EVER. People actually ENJOYED playing, and helping other players, because how can you "waste time" playing a game??? The number of (uber) people standing around in Revenant's Toll tells me that they don't know what wasting time is!!! Get them in a dungeon/raid with new people and all of a sudden from standing around for an hour, anything that goes wrong is "wasting their time"...duh!

This has to be the most toxic, juvenile community I have ever witnessed in any mmo...well WoW comes close. I feel it's coming from the console people who have never played MMOs but only first person shooter type games, where kids and bad manners are rife.

We need to teach these people that manners actually matter and that tantrums and rudeness will not be tolerated, who knows, it may even teach them some useful life skills :)

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Originally Posted by AiChyan

I just don't understand one thing, people talk about experiencing content and exploring, but they go in asking the party for an explanation on what to do, so what is the difference between looking it up beforehand and having someone write down to you what you would have looked up?

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There is a little difference between having read a detailed guide/watched a video and just have a few guide lines in the beginning of a new fight. I guess it would be the difference between being spoonfed and being served a meal.

You still have to figure out what the hell is happening to you in real time

As an example, I went in a moggle Ex group as a tank. No video, no guide, nothing. People just said "tank the kind, trade hate cuz stack, don't kill the adds". I still wiped us like a noob a dozen of times because I was late on trading, letting the adds having the damage buff, taking the meteor... Tons of fun really (joking here..).

Though it's true that there isn't much difference, as watching a video beforehand is about as useful as doing nothing. You know the big lines, and missed the tons of details which would allow you to do a proper job.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

It's common courtesy, MMO or elsewhere, to do simple things that prevent you from wasting other peoples' time in group activities.

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Not really. It HAS BECOME "common courtesy" when people started to harass other players about how much they were "wasting their precious time". There was a time when people were teaching the newcomers, because every newb instructed would become a valuable ally in future content. Nowadays, people are playing MMOs in a solo mindset : You're not playing together, you're maxing the amount of things you can do as a person in the minimum amount of time.
Playing together (aka "having fun") doesn't have a "time wasted" value. How could it be wasted if you *play* with other people ?

But yeah, time changes, mentalities do as well. It's just a pity that now new players are told to "WATCH A VID OR GTFO" when you could teach them yourself if you really want that bad to avoid a few wipes.

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Originally Posted by Rosy

snip

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got ninja'ed :)

I watch videos before I try new content. But to be perfectly frank I still need some explanations from the pug group on my first time anyways. The likelihood that the video perfectly mirrors the establish regular pug strat is very very low. An example would be when I first tried to do Garuda HM. Each video had you pull garuda to a different corner of the room after the rocks get destroyed and after the sisters in the middle of the room. Some had you go SE some NW some SW. So as a tank I was utterly lost as to where I was supposed to position her.

So even with a video I still needed some explanations on the encounter when I entered via DF. Coil turn 4 really isn't any different. If you go onto youtube and look up the various videos on the encounter there are differences in how it's done.

While yes it is helpful to other players that you look up a video first as a launching point. It's really not a full substitute for in game explanations. So it doesn't really phase me if the person looked up a video or not. I'd opt to do a quick run down of the encounter to anyone that announces themselves as new anyways.

Nah all.
People magically to expect you to know the fight after watching a video like you've ran it 50 gillion times.
Till you get to the nitty gritty and have to do it yourself even with a bit of vid help
then they get pissed at you. The more YOU actually do it first hand, the easier the runs will be.
Even then, people will still make mistakes. We're only human.

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Originally Posted by Rosy

This has to be the most toxic, juvenile community I have ever witnessed in any mmo...well WoW comes close. I feel it's coming from the console people who have never played MMOs but only first person shooter type games, where kids and bad manners are rife.

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Tell me about it lol.
I play on PS3 tbh, I think it's just whoever being a butthead tbh. It's people always worrying about 'time' in this game so
we must know everything or get knocked upside the head.

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Originally Posted by Rosy

Let me adjust that "It's common nowadays, MMO or elsewhere, to watch videos".....When MMOs were new, and before the dreaded WoW....NOBODY looked at videos, read write ups...EVER.

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Sorry, but while the rise of YouTube and hyper-comprehensive wikis is relatively recent in MMO history, there have always been sites to go digging for information, and people have used them constantly.

And maybe I was just playing the wrong ones, but most of the older MMOs I've been through, the reality was that if you could handle one piece of content you could handle them all, short of being underlevelled/wrongly geared. The entirity of the 'skill' was just knowing how to play your class and which elemental weakness you should be exploiting, because past that, challenges weren't nearly as significantly differentiated from one another as they are in modern MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

Sorry, but while the rise of YouTube and hyper-comprehensive wikis is relatively recent in MMO history, there have always been sites to go digging for information, and people have used them constantly.

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12 years in MMO and the first time ever I've been asked to "read a guide" or "watch a video" is like 6 month ago. People using them =/= "it's common courtesy to use them"

to be fair,

you did asked "What do we need to know?"

in which the person answered "Go watch a youtube video of it", so nothing wrong with this.

you were going in expecting to be spoonfed with the info but people didn't bother to do it for you so now you complain.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

12 years in MMO and the first time ever I've been asked to "read a guide" or "watch a video" is like 6 month ago. People using them =/= "it's common courtesy to use them"

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I'm not arguing that; but I am arguing against someone who said this kind of thing was 'brand new'.

We used to call them build guides, because that was the part that mattered. People looked them up of their own accord, made them to help each other out, because they were one of the biggest ways people could screw themselves and other players over.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

I'm not arguing that; but I am arguing against someone who said this kind of thing was 'brand new'.

We used to call them build guides, because that was the part that mattered. People looked them up of their own accord, made them to help each other out, because they were one of the biggest ways people could screw themselves and other players over.

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Not only that. We used to have to rely on Linkshell/Guilds. It was there that we learned the end-game fights. Not from random people.

Also, I'm fairly sure most of us "old-timers" looked up a guide on a quest or two back in the days before quest indicators.

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12 years in MMO and the first time ever I've been asked to "read a guide" or "watch a video" is like 6 month ago. People using them =/= "it's common courtesy to use them"

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I played FFXI. And well, I can honestly say that it wasn't very nice to come to a BCNM fight without knowledge of it.