DevTalk: Detailed Analysis of Depopulation in Limsa/Grid and How to Fix It

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Originally Posted by Physic

crafters will have even more reasons to work out of other towns, and a market to get while doing it. It is a little more likely you will see more specific things in certain areas, like woodworking crap in grid, etc.

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If current player behavior is anything to go by, this will not have a significant impact. People who accept Grid and Limsa local leves now do one of the following:

1. Do the locals as fast as possible, then go back to Uldah
2. Pick up the locals, go back to Uldah, do the synths, drop off locals later.

Even after the patch, there still won't be any compelling reason to stick around. There will be more of a reason than now, yes, but will it be enough? I'm not so sure.

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Originally Posted by Physic

transportation issues: this is a real factor, and i think its also why he wants to get a very basic easy and fast airship system going city to city, a no cutscene form of travel from city to city that uses money instead of anima will open up travel.
This i think will eliminate the need to unify the MW, and though it will increase shopping times for bargain hunters, I think it will make it a good balance of bargain hunting and accessibility. For easy things you probably want to stay in towns, but for expensive or important gears you may check all three.

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There's still not enough total people per server to make all 3 wards in all 3 cities viable yet. Even with airship transport, it would still be in everyone's best interest to just consolidate their retainers in one city. The game might as well be designed around that concept.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Also unifying wards can only work if they add a delivery type system,

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We need a mailbox, but I don't think that's the only reason why a unified ward would work. I'm not sure what your reasoning is here.

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Originally Posted by Physic

or they make MW not transport you to other towns.

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I thought this part was obvious. You enter ward from Grid, you exit to Grid. You enter ward from Uldah, you exit to Uldah.

In effect, this actually acts sort of like a makeshift mailbox, since you can always meet someone to trade, even if they're in a different city. Just meet in the wards.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I thought this part was obvious. You enter ward from Grid, you exit to Grid. You enter ward from Uldah, you exit to Uldah.

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Yes, but does that actually make physical sense?

If a person can walk into Room X from Room Y that is connected to Room Z (because people from Room Z can walk in and interact with things in Room Y), what physical reason is there to stop people from going into Room X from Room Z through Room Y?

If I can get to the Unified Market Ward zone from the Limsa Lominsa zone and from Gridania zone to interact with retainers and players from both cities, what stops me from just walking to the Gridania zone through the Market Ward zone?

Normal physics will not allow for a unified Market Ward zone. So we'll have to use metaphysics instead.

Any ideas anyone??

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Yes, but does that actually make physical sense?

If a person can walk into Room X from Room Y that is connected to Room Z (because people from Room Z can walk in and interact with things in Room Y), what physical reason is there to stop people from going into Room X from Room Z through Room Y?

If I can get to the Unified Market Ward zone from the Limsa Lominsa zone and from Gridania zone to interact with retainers and players from both cities, what stops me from just walking to the Gridania zone through the Market Ward zone?

Normal physics will not allow for a unified Market Ward zone. So we'll have to use metaphysics instead.

Any ideas anyone??

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Huh? Are you arguing this from the perspective of retaining immersion or something?

This is a computer program. All the regions and zones aren't laid out in a physical location. They aren't all laid out on after the other in some kind of actual physical order. They are just coordinates in a virtual space. The market wards in Uldah right now aren't actually attached to Uldah, they are just another instance in the server.

If you enter the unified wards from Uldah, the game knows that you came from Uldah, so when you choose to exit the wards, the game automatically puts you back in Uldah.

how i see it is if they make it so marks are only attainable at cities that correspond to the given cities it will spread out the classes for parties. (possibley making unbalanced classes in a party) It will be like seeing all conj, archers etc in one city while guardians, etc in another city doing their levequests. Same with trade classes having to have to travel to other cities to get what they need to complete their items they are making. alot of travel here to get your mats unless we have a central hub somewhere. I see people using up way more anima then they use to with this change. (unless they plan on giving us airships sometime soon)

Forgot to say. They are better off making anima 0 cost for now to each city until airships come out.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Huh? Are you arguing this from the perspective of retaining immersion or something?

This is a computer program. All the regions and zones aren't laid out in a physical location. They aren't all laid out on after the other in some kind of actual physical order. They are just coordinates in a virtual space. The market wards in Uldah right now aren't actually attached to Uldah, they are just another instance in the server.

If you enter the unified wards from Uldah, the game knows that you came from Uldah, so when you choose to exit the wards, the game automatically puts you back in Uldah.

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Yes. I'm not arguing against a Unifed Market Ward, though. I kind of like the idea. I'm just pointing out a flaw that needs to be addressed.

Gridania and Limsa Lominsa are just instances on the server, along with Market Wards. However the case, in the virtual world of Eorzea we cannot simply go from Gridania to Limsa Lominsa without a physical or metaphysical conveyance (e.g. walking, running, teleportation, etc).

All I'm saying is that we need to put some thought into how players from different (virtual) geographic cities can somehow end up in the same (virtual) geographic marketplace simply by walking down a street or making a left around the next corner.

Time And Relative Dimension In Space, transporters, portkeys, folding space with Spice, high-speed elevators to the center of the planet ... whatever. The players just need a way to get to this Unified Market Ward that can be explained. It doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to be explainable. The more it fits into the lore of the game though, the better.

As it is now, you already teleport into the wards. It would be the same as it is now as if they were unified.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

As it is now, you already teleport into the wards. It would be the same as it is now as if they were unified.

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Teleportation, eh? I can work with that. Look for a new thread shortly.

BTW, the game doesn't actually state that it's teleporting your character anywhere when you go into a Ward. It uses the imprecise term "move". The engine uses the teleport mechanic and graphics, but the game implies that you have not really teleported anywhere. That's why I wanted you opinion on the best way to convey players to this new Unified Market Ward.

P.S. - Unified Market Ward is a mouthful. Can we call the new zone Midian?

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

Ul'dah, to me, is the most ergonomically designed and positioned city.

In between Limsa and Gridania.
When you teleport in, you're next to the Wards, the Adventurer's Guild, a vendor, a retainer, the repair NPC, and the exit of the city.

Unlike Gridania leves, you usually have an open space to get from the Camp to the leve in a straight line, rather than remember the correct paths in the maze. Where Limsa leves usually had extended running distances.

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Definitely this. In addition to the other reasons mentioned here, this is the main reason I spend most of my time in Ul'dah. The design of the other two cities makes absolutely no sense. They both have long and completely empty stretches of land between the actual city, and the actual exit. I mean come on, that long a** bridge in Limsa, really? WHY??? Not to mention navigating them is more of a hassle than navigating the rest of the game. Ul'dah for the most part makes sense design wise. There really isn't even a question as to why no one goes to the other two.

I am not going to dwell on the details of SP, Leves etc. I am only going to talk about the design of the other two cities. Firstly Ul'dah overall design is decent. Its not particularly great but it works. It would be nice if they can just open the gates instead of forcing gamers to make an unnecessary detour; you know save gamers a few seconds here and there.

Then you have Gridania which feels more like a maze. In fact the entire world of Black Shroud is a blatant unattractive maze. No-one who has played the game should be wondering why the population is low. Its a navigational nightmare. I don't know why the original developers thought that making everything in the city to be similar to that of an ants nests would be a great idea. Its simply dreadful and the overall design feels and plays like an enormous timesink.

Limsa is not any better. The varying floors and everything is connected by a relatively long bridges has a very similar feel to that of Gridania. The city supposed to be accessible. Not play out like a separate tiresome adventure. And that is really the issue with the other cities. Its simply painful to navigate. Not only that, it takes a while to leave both cities because someone thought it would also be a equally great idea to have a unnecessarily long bridge from these cities to the actual world.

OK I am done ranting about the horrible designs of these two cities.

the Ulda situation has definitely snow balled. I don't think i would be overstating that the snowball has reached such epic proportions that it now has its own gravitational pull. The leve reformations will do a bit to help spread people out, but for the time being i think at best it will encourage people to pay more frequent visits to limsa or grid. Its a big catch 22 the people will go where the other people are.