Primals and Egis

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

[T]he Ixal tried settling in the Black Shroud but were expelled by the elementals (presumably before Gridania was founded, back when the elezen still dwelt underground in Gelmorra), and regard both the elementals and the Gridanians as interlopers on 'their' land. It's the cause of their hostility towards the forest nation, and Garuda just inflames the situation.

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This is actually one of the reasons I wondered if there's could be an influence from summoner to summoned. That is, the Ixal feel as though their home has been taken from them, and, over time, have become more and more violent and desperate to get it back. (In the Gridania story they talk about the Ixal targetting the tree, which seemed like a new, rather brazen, thing they were trying to do both against the elementals and Gridania.)

(cont from above) I don't know how to properly word it, but it sort of makes me wonder about their devotion? Like, at first they may have felt like, oh these elezen won't pose a problem, and called to Garuda, and while she came, she was rather weak comparatively, and the Twin Adders were able to defeat her. Now they're much more devoted, much more angry, and the Twin Adders seem to have no hope of challenging her, seeking out the Scions when she reappears.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Not sure if anyone has brought this up since there are too many pages to read, but there was a quest that told a tale about garuda not being bloodthirsty or "evil" by any means, but a great deity for her ppl. It was only after she battled a defeated, then I believe devoured a serpent to protect her ppl she went mad and had a thirst for blood. So that kindda blows the violent primal theory out since it proves not all primals are violent

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In addition to Enkidoh's post, that would imply that Garuda existed as a goddess before she was summoned by the Ixal. Now, yes, this is what the Ixal believe, but the Ixal only gained the ability to summon her recently, as it was seemingly impossible to do so without the seal on Silvertear Lake being broken by the Empire.

You could say, "Then yes, Wolf, she did exist," but then that would mean that that myth about her was from before the seal was placed on Silvertear Lake, which was, what, the Third Astral Era? Maybe earlier? Did the Ixal exist then as we know them today? We don't have an exact date as to when that myth was supposed to take place, and since Garuda couldn't manifest while that seal was in place, I'm gonna chalk it up to horse-hockey.

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Originally Posted by Niniyo

In the Gridania story they talk about the Ixal targetting the tree, which seemed like a new, rather brazen, thing they were trying to do both against the elementals and Gridania.

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If I remember correctly, it was the Ascian paragon of the Ixal that commanded them to attack that tree to destroy an important crystal by allowing Garuda to consume it.

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

In addition to Enkidoh's post, that would imply that Garuda existed as a goddess before she was summoned by the Ixal. Now, yes, this is what the Ixal believe, but the Ixal only gained the ability to summon her recently, as it was seemingly impossible to do so without the seal on Silvertear Lake being broken by the Empire.

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This is one of the original bits of confusion that led to my theory about primals being thoughtforms - that all it takes is your belief in something to be able to summon it, regardless of whether or not it ever actually existed. The Ixal chose the Twelveswood (Tinolqa) as their home 550 years ago, and even then they worshiped Garuda, the Empress of Birds. After they began to summon her, however, this title seems to have disappeared in favor of The Lady of the Vortex, which relates to the wind aspect of her summoning crystals more than anything in her legend. Of course, part of this drives me in a different direction than my own theory - the Ixal lost their feathers about 150 years ago after roosting in Xelphatol and began to worship her more zealously because they believed the Empress of Birds could return them to the sky - one of their motivations for summoning her in the first place. I always wondered if perhaps Garuda's "essence" had something to do with that misfortune, which would imply that she indeed existed at least as an essence before 1562. Then again, perhaps she didn't exist yet and something in Xelphatol is what caused their transformation. I tend to go in circles with myself on this topic.

I just can't grasp how all of the primals we've seen from prior to the Sixth Astral Era are referred to as Elder yet somehow our current ones existed in some form before 1562, a time in which the physical and aetherial realms were in balance and primals could not exist, if it's not belief-based. Until I see something contradicting it, I just can't let go of the idea that there's something to the thoughtform theory, that the primals are physical manifestations of zealous belief, mere icons... or eikons...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

...that all it takes is your belief in something to be able to summon it, regardless of whether or not it ever actually existed.

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I really, really believe in pizza...and smokin' hot 10/10s. :cool:

I am starting to form my own theories on the Elder Primals and how they relate to the primals (if at all) but I'm not sure I have all the information I need to come to a conclusion. Mainly, where the Elders came from, but I don't suppose that is information we'll be handed any time in the near future.

I, too, think the Garleans had the right of it calling them eikons...

Ugh....Mooooooooooose......*whine*

I....I just watched the original CGI for 1.0. It showed the Primals (Ifrit and Titan) shooting out of the busted seal at Silvertear during Derplanders Echo-jaunt. That kind of implies that they existed within the seal. I can't believe I forgot about this.

Was this ever glossed over, or does that punch a whole in the theory? Unless, of course, they continue to exist, as I originally thought, within the aether as lifeforms after being created. In which case, the beast tribes might not be all that wrong in deifying them, considering they have been around a long time and created by an earlier civilization (the...the Allag?), but they are certainly not gods.

I just really hope it was symbolism. Really, really hope.

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

Was this ever glossed over, or does that punch a whole in the theory?

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All of our theories on that matter are so thin and based on so few pieces of big info that anything can be accommodated into the theory. Even the part I said randomly on a whim, that "hey, maybe people die and their thoughts and memories and beliefs create these essences in the stream!" can be explained away with "the seal prevented them from ever leaving it!" Honestly, all of my theories on this matter are mostly blind and probably wrong, but I needed to start somewhere. If you're super bored, Fusionx and I go over that very issue, primals in the seal, in that podcast we did not long ago. It seems Allagan, and we know they had the power to seal primals due to their binding Odin in crystal under a spring, which seems a lot like binding them in Mor Dhona under a lake, no? Ultima, too, could trap them. Long story short - I have no idea what's up with any of this and I just like exploring things that sort of fit at random until we know what it's not.

A few puzzles pieces we can identify over here... a few ones that don't connect to them over there... maybe a picture forms in the blanks over time.