Yep, its too much. They're going to buff warriors too much if those changes go live

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Originally Posted by wonka11

Also, I did cadecus with 5 stacks in only 1 piece of i90 which was easily attainable by anyone investing their myth gear; so the disparity between gear and content is not as great as you think.

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that's nice, a darklight paladin solo tanked him.

if you haven't experienced it yet, there's actually a progression through coil

killing caduceus isn't exactly hard, people were doing it months ago without a single piece of i90 gear on anyone in the entire raid.

ADS actually adds some mechanics to worry about, but nothing jarring

the turn 4 gauntlet actually gives tanks something to do, and has a higher dps/heal check than caduceus

and turn 5 is an even bigger dps/heal check than 4, not to mention you have to know how to position/dodge correctly or things will go poorly real quick like.

...honestly I know there was a post a while back about how paladins were 'stronger than intended', but i refuse to believe there wasn't anyone at SE that was capable of reading ability descriptions and realizing what that would mean for progression tanking.

when that stuff was datamined back in phase 3 of beta the players were acutely aware that paladins would be the preferred progression tank by miles and miles

all you're essentially arguing here is that every class in the game is balanced except paladin, whereas most people are arguing that every class in the game is balanced except warrior.

from a design perspective.. it makes sense to me to give tanking cooldowns to tanks.. much the same way that dps have dps cooldowns.. and healers have healer cooldowns..

so i fall on the side of warriors being out of whack.. where are their tanking cooldowns?

makes more sense to give some mitigation timers to warrior rather than delete rampart/sentinel/raging strikes/blood for blood/internal release/divine seal/lustrate/benediction etc...

then again i suppose that is an opinion, the only real fact is that there was a disparity between the two tanks.

tldr - i don't buy that SE was simply unaware of how strong paladins were any more than i buy that warriors were performing as well as paladins in their in-house testing.

both were simply PR statements to calm the player base down

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

For starters, WAR and PLD dps, when equally geared and using optimal rotations, is VERY close. The only reason WAR pulls noticeably ahead in parses is because of their resistance debuff - which when up affects PLD as well. PLD have a damage debuff in their main combo, which WAR will be able to take benefit of and which will very likely stack with WAR's new damage debuff.

Bringing a PLD and a WAR will give you two stacking 10% damage reduction debuffs on whatever you're fighting, and +10% damage (and therefore enmity generation) for both tanks. As well as the opportunity to use PLD's cooldown suite for spaced-out long periods of mitigation, and WARs cooldowns for regular short bursts of mitigation... not to mention PLD's CC abilities like Blind, Silence, a GCD stun, etc etc. and situational Cover, Provoke and Hallowed Grounds.

PLD + WAR will be better than WAR + WAR or PLD + PLD, in the same way that SCH + WHM is currently better than WHM + WHM or SCH + SCH. Which isn't to say that you won't be able to run content with any combination of them, but that it will be easier and more efficient to run with the mixed combo.

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It used to be close, but it's not any more.

One of the best DPS abilities a WAR had was Inner Beast, but you weren't allowed to use it often due to the fact you lose Wrath stacks, but now they are no longer linked, you spam it with impunity. So this patch has increased their DPS a considerable amount in a realistic situation.

Honestly, WARxWAR seems better if you have 2 BRDs and don't need the silence.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

It used to be close, but it's not any more.

One of the best DPS abilities a WAR had was Inner Beast, but you weren't allowed to use it often due to the fact you lose Wrath stacks, but now they are no longer linked, you spam it with impunity.

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...not if you're tanking.. you'll be saving it for the mitigation effect when needed, not just mindlessly popping it every time it's available

if you're just DPSing.. sure go for it.. but why are you DPSing with defiance on? that's way less damage than a paladin with sword oath up :\

Guys. Calm Down. Yes Warrior Buffs look good on paper, but until we have it in our hands its impossible to say one is better than othere. I think the classes will be more balanced. Also, all this is still in developement and subject to change.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

...not if you're tanking.. you'll be saving it for the mitigation effect when needed, not just mindlessly popping it every time it's available

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Pretty much this.

For content where mitigation counts- WAR + PLD is going to be where it's at. Even if we discount the PLDs cooldowns and CC and assume that the WAR was Main Tanking, it'd mean that whatever boss the WAR was hitting gets an extra 10% damage reduction from the PLD's RoH combo.

Simple Synergy.

And incidentally: whilst I'd not debate that WARs have higher Spike damage potential than PLDs, many parses for Off Tanks (e.g. Outside of Defiance where you can spam IB to your heart's content) have already shown PLD to be very slightly ahead of WAR on DPS over time. This is purely because of the Autoattack increase granted by Sword Oath: unlike a WAR, PLDs actually have a DPS enhancing stance. And remember that the damage resistance debuff inflicted by WAR would benefit the PLD here as well, so if both were hitting the same mob and identically geared, a sword-oathed PLD would be no slouch.

I really expect WARs and PLDs to be fairly interchangeable after this patch, and the ideal party makeup to be PLD + WAR. I'm hoping that's what the Devs are aiming for.

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Originally Posted by Vmage

...not if you're tanking.. you'll be saving it for the mitigation effect when needed, not just mindlessly popping it every time it's available

if you're just DPSing.. sure go for it.. but why are you DPSing with defiance on? that's way less damage than a paladin with sword oath up :\

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There's no reason to save Wrath stacks any more due to the changes in Defiance. Which is the change that Warrior mechanics needed most. So why wouldn't you blow IB everytime you have a full Wrath stack when you're tanking? It's a 6sec Rampart every ~15sec. It sounds pretty OP to me.

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

For starters, WAR and PLD dps, when equally geared and using optimal rotations, is VERY close.

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Stop eating forum beliefs when I say War are miles ahead trust me they are we been parsing our war vs pld in dps gear and hands down war is better... talking not even close like 170 - 180 dps vs 200 - 220 dps on our warrior.

And thats with the pld getting the warriors debuff... just saying with being able to IB more often War damage out put will really take off....

Oh and what plp dont under stand you can put up defiance stance enrage IB and drop stance every 60 seconds to add to your dps rotation you dont keep the stance on the whole fight.

It's kinda hot in here, the PLD circlejerk is making it hot and sweaty in here

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Originally Posted by JHeezy

There's no reason to save Wrath stacks any more due to the changes in Defiance. Which is the change that Warrior mechanics needed most. So why wouldn't you blow IB everytime you have a full Wrath stack when you're tanking? It's a 6sec Rampart every ~15sec. It sounds pretty OP to me.

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Because incoming damage taken is not flat, ensuring that the 20% DR buff is active in accordance with spike damage (insofar as you are able) is superior, from a mitigation perspective, from just blowing it as soon as you get it.

And it's more like every 22-24s, which is actually a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Solduios

Stop eating forum beliefs when I say War are miles ahead trust me they are we been parsing our war vs pld in dps gear and hands down war is better... talking not even close like 170 - 180 dps vs 200 - 220 dps on our warrior.

And thats with the pld getting the warriors debuff... just saying with being able to IB more often War damage out put will really take off....

Oh and what plp dont under stand you can put up defiance stance enrage IB and drop stance every 60 seconds to add to your dps rotation you dont keep the stance on the whole fight.

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Funny, there are plenty of parses that say the exact opposite. Sounds like based on a combination of gear and skill, your WAR is better at DPS than your PLD.

The math says they should be equal or PLD in the lead, and there is just as much empirical evidence the opposite (e.g. the 220 DPS on Twintania from BG's off-tank, who is a PLD running Sword Oath for most of the fight and spec'd into STR instead of VIT, with no WAR in party to grant a slashing damage bonus).

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Originally Posted by Vmage

...not if you're tanking.. you'll be saving it for the mitigation effect when needed, not just mindlessly popping it every time it's available

if you're just DPSing.. sure go for it.. but why are you DPSing with defiance on? that's way less damage than a paladin with sword oath up :\

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Yeah, you will use it as often as possible. You have Infuriate if you're in dire need, at most you'll wait a few seconds to hold back on using it. Before you'd go a full minute without even thinking of using it.