Could I take a moment of your time (WHM related)

As a healer I usually wait until the mobs turn red from flash to pop regen and let that tic while PLD/WAR does their first hate combo before I toss in my cure 1. It dependfs on the person tanking though because with my FC they'll pull with my regen active and have hate secured before the mobs even think about sampling my holy plushness.

As a tank I have no issues aswell securing my pulls as I open with FoF, shield lob 1, spirits within 2, Circle of Scorn and flash for the rest. Sometimes I'll flash 2-3 times if the number of enemies are greater than 3, after doing that the WHM is safe from any hate while I cycle my hate combo on 1, flash, hate combo on the highest numbered target, flash and back to 1. I do alot of target switching while rolling my combo which allows my parties to go all out (bards, and summoners doting all the mobs, etc). In the case of slept mobs I will pull the current target by them and just flash after every combo so once they awaken they wake and attack me.

I am a believer if you are a PLD and end a multi mob pull with 100% MP any threat issues you may be suffering is your fault for not playing your role correctly not the healer or the dps.

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

As a healer I usually wait until the mobs turn red from flash to pop regen and let that tic while PLD/WAR does their first hate combo before I toss in my cure 1. It dependfs on the person tanking though because with my FC they'll pull with my regen active and have hate secured before the mobs even think about sampling my holy plushness.

As a tank I have no issues aswell securing my pulls as I open with FoF, shield lob 1, spirits within 2, Circle of Scorn and flash for the rest. Sometimes I'll flash 2-3 times if the number of enemies are greater than 3, after doing that the WHM is safe from any hate while I cycle my hate combo on 1, flash, hate combo on the highest numbered target, flash and back to 1. I do alot of target switching while rolling my combo which allows my parties to go all out (bards, and summoners doting all the mobs, etc). In the case of slept mobs I will pull the current target by them and just flash after every combo so once they awaken they wake and attack me.

I am a believer if you are a PLD and end a multi mob pull with 100% MP any threat issues you may be suffering is your fault for not playing your role correctly not the healer or the dps.

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Mmm. I've run into pug DPS who open on the wrong mob (doesn't seem to matter if you mark or not, they're just...they refuse to follow marks). It's especially bad with Bards and BLMs. But, what I've noticed is that they'll open on the unmarked/incorrect mob, pull threat, the tank will scramble to get it back (because he wasn't building threat as quickly on said mob) and I'll pull threat on something else in the ensuing melee where multiple people are taking damage, etc.

Flash honestly will not hold threat on a healer going all out. Even if you circle of Scorn or whatever, you still need to rotate through those mobs. However, sleeped mobs seem to ignore my healing (my threat does not appear to rise at all while they're CC'd, while Flash does raise their threat on the tank).

I enjoyed Liadan's explanation for how humorous (I mean that in a nice way, I laughed at "miss glowy hands") it was.

It is mostly accurate.

However, this weak proximity hate they talk about is non-existent. A mob aggros a player by sight or by proximity in any direction (habits from XI will have some of us calling this sound). They have 0 hate on the target. Any action, a cure from a level 1 monk with cure equipped, would pull hate off a relic geared 50 paladin.

The only thing that exists that could be called proximity hate is better called party hate, and is what SE added to gimp AK speed runs = when the mobs are agro'd, they'll want to kill everyone in the party. I haven't tried a speedrun since the change, so I'm not sure if it's every mob, but I know that it is not every dungeon mob.

Liadan's explanation also highlights when freely regening everyone in the group is bad. You can build up a lot of hate that's not accomplishing anything, and further, though I haven't tested this myself, only read it, regen and medica produce more enmity-per-hp than cure.

If you and I are in a party, just the two of us, and I agro something, and you cure us both for 700, or medica us both for 700, the medica will give you more hate than the two cures. This is how some ifrits are lost to trigger happy white mages. (I only saw this once, but the warrior pulled and the whm immediately medica 2'd, and ifrit clawed the clothies.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Mmm. I've run into pug DPS who open on the wrong mob (doesn't seem to matter if you mark or not, they're just...they refuse to follow marks). It's especially bad with Bards and BLMs. But, what I've noticed is that they'll open on the unmarked/incorrect mob, pull threat, the tank will scramble to get it back (because he wasn't building threat as quickly on said mob) and I'll pull threat on something else in the ensuing melee where multiple people are taking damage, etc.

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This is true. I run into DPS like this sometimes.

I can actually keep the healer safe, but what usually happens is the bard (I don't know why but if I'm having a problem out of a dps attacking the wrong target, 9/10, it's a bard) shoots whatever he wants, I don't want to slow the group down so I switch, and the poor drg or monk or blm or whatever is attacking my marked target, so I end up losing hate to him while chasing the bard.

It's a tough place to be. I like to watch bad players die, but I don't want to slow pulls down. By the time my marked target is dead, I've already marked something new. There is no reason at all for someone to attack the wrong target, other than wanting to be a pain. I also know the most dangerous mob in the pack to attack, so it's not even that.

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Flash honestly will not hold threat on a healer going all out. Even if you circle of Scorn or whatever, you still need to rotate through those mobs. However, sleeped mobs seem to ignore my healing (my threat does not appear to rise at all while they're CC'd, while Flash does raise their threat on the tank).

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This is completely true. Tanks can build enmity with flash (dots will also continue to build enmity), while the mobs are slept. You can even test it to be certain. Have a blm friend sleep something, chain cast cure 2 on them, and then have them wake it up and you'll notice you have either no threat on the target or an empty bar.

Flash will outpace with a healer in a 4 man, as long as he's not chaining medicas, or like one healer I had, which I suspect was a bot, just chain chain chain casting heals. Literally 75% of his healing had to be overheals.

Regen's one thing but I feel that most whms dont even remember that they have a particular spell: Repose. Using AK for example, in a party where there are no BLMs, even just one monster reposed will still help nicely. Most of AK only has 3 monsters in a pull and one monster reposed essentially cuts down incoming damage by a chunk. That means less damage to heal, which means less threat all around for the healer. There's less threat to manage at a time too, which lets the tank spike up the threat for current market target, which lets damage dealers do whatever they want to it. I'm not sure if most damage dealers even know about the enmity bar (not the enemy list icons). I've even had parties where I told the whm to repose certain targets and all I get is silence and no repose.

AK mobs that I know that can be slept:
Humanoids (sleep the axe wielding one while I'm busy trying to stun the demon summon spell and flash to hold all three..i can't rely on duty melees to stun it for me),
Gargoyles (they come in 2s or 3s, no aoes thankfully but still nice if at least one is slept),
Lights (single target attacking only afaik but surprisingly damaging with their fast attacks),
Ahrimans (paralyzing conal aoe plus random succubus aoes),

Regen at the beginning is wrong because each tick will generate hate. This can be compounded because you used Stoneskin. But let's be honest, it's only wrong if you are "overhealing".

There is nothing wrong with Regen as long as you don't overheal the tank.

My combo is just Stoneskin at the beginning. This will allow you to wait, and let the tank get Hate on the mobs. This will reduce the chance that you will pull hate from the mobs.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Mmm. I've run into pug DPS who open on the wrong mob (doesn't seem to matter if you mark or not, they're just...they refuse to follow marks). It's especially bad with Bards and BLMs. But, what I've noticed is that they'll open on the unmarked/incorrect mob, pull threat, the tank will scramble to get it back (because he wasn't building threat as quickly on said mob) and I'll pull threat on something else in the ensuing melee where multiple people are taking damage, etc.

Flash honestly will not hold threat on a healer going all out. Even if you circle of Scorn or whatever, you still need to rotate through those mobs. However, sleeped mobs seem to ignore my healing (my threat does not appear to rise at all while they're CC'd, while Flash does raise their threat on the tank).

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As i said I cycle my targets and flash often and if the tank is not made of melted butter the healer shouldn't really need to "go all out". As for the cases where the DPS opens on another mob I usually switch to that one throw in a hate combo and return to cycling targets with Fight or Flight up you should have enough hate with scorn and the constant flashes between combos to maintain hate on everything. i noticed not alot of tanks cycle targets so healers (including myself) tend to get alot of hate on any additional mobs which is why i sleep those that can be slept and if not I will just tell the tank he should cycle targets if not for a full combo atleast drop a rage of halone finisher on i

@ OP

You're doing everything fine for the most part. I, myself, always stoneskin (when possible) before the tank even begins to run into a trash mob. This way, I can wait off on heals till all the "shapes" are all green before I begin regen/heal/watever. Just don't cast anything right at the beginning of a pull and you'll be k.

As people have stated regen creates hate every tick. From a tank's point of view it more irritating than anything else. Not a huge issue just means up you may get hit once or twice before I can shield lob / tomahawk then Flash / Overpower.

But one thing to remember is that you're wasting HP recovery. Casting regen while I'm at full HP is kinda pointless in the scheme of things.

Not a huge issue though :)

Haven't read whole thread, but, as a tank, if:

-I have regen from previous pull
-I am pulling multiple mobs

then:

-I will cancel my regen buff.

Easy to do and prevents healer from gaining that initial regen tic aggro.

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Originally Posted by Vindrax

I'm learning good stuff here too... I could be wrong, but I think in 1.0, regen gave you enmity when you first cast it and not on a per tick basis, so if you did it pre-pull you didn't have to worry about getting hate from that healing. That definitely makes it a little harder to use more effectively.

It seems silly to me though that it would generate enmity though if there is no actually effective healing done (tank at full HP). Can anyone confirm this? Working as intended?

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Yes, over-healing generates enmity, as it should.