What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Krithas

All they had to do was have the narrative stay gray and not blatantly suck her off yet they didn't and that ruined the game for me. I havn't been this mad at a game since Tales of Graces F. I gave 6.1 a chance to see if they would change the narrative, instead they double downed and sucked off Hydaelyn even harder in the codex. They even had Y'shtola summon 2 familiars as guinea pigs to enter the void, but no worries she's a Scion and a good guy! Unlike the evil Ancients who created familiars to see if they would help the planet and environment, her using them as test subjects and subjecting one to pain was totally A OK!!.

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Back in Heavensward, Ilberd tricks Garleans into believing Eorzeans have declared war, dragging Eorzeans into a conflict they wanted no part of. He manipulates his own followers, throwing them under the bus to use their lives as fodder to feed his revolution. He does all of this for the good of Ala Mhigo and Eorzea as a whole, but despite the fact that his actions did jumpstart the liberation efforts, and would eventually culminate in Eorzea finally regaining its borders, he'll never be remembered as anything lesser than a monster, and rightfully so.

I felt both he and Hydaelyn weren't too dissimilar in some regards. They're both manipultive rebels willing to crack as many eggs as it takes to get the job done. But imo, it isn't their actions or morality that sets them apart, the disparity between them lies in their language. Ilberd murdered his way to the end of his story, never pretending to feel remorse over the lives he's taken in pursuit of his goal and even angrily renounces his ties to Ala Mhigan's who were only motivated to join the liberation by cash. Hydaelyn however had the luxury of smothering her comically grandiose acts of cruelty under her soothing voice, calm demeanor, and her boundless affection for mankind (that they'll never let you forget about lol). Unlike Ilberd, she can never be branded a monster simply because she loves us too damn much to be one.

Also I agree, that Y'shtola moment was fucked lmao. Took a good minute or two for the hypocrisy of that scene to fully settle in.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Yeah I've noticed things like that more and more the "rules for thee but not for me." I definitely raised an eyebrow during the reaper quests too.

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Wait, what's this about the Reaper quests? it's been a while, but I don't remember anything particularly controversial about it.

Even people who didnt notice the venat stuff were also a bit taken aback by the familiar stuff I've noticed

But I feel like one thing that made some people or larger groups not dislike hydaelyn/venat stuff and also in SOME ways dampens the blow depending on your perspective is that the sundering already happened, so to them it wasn't like the jailer from shadowlands to them.

Of course I still think they should reframe venat more and focus on the horribleness of it all, or make that memory a doublethink moment after the sundering. And even if you dont care for the venat crticisms the big flashback is legitimately just a storytelling issue, it's confusing even if you like her

Not gonna lie, when I read the live letter when they said that Hermes and Meteion characters were based on "social media (like twitter)", that I began to.......question the integrity of the writing team, lets put it that way.

Haven't been here in a long while, and I have to admit I have just read only the past 10 pages or so. Agreed that real life politics should stay out of game discussion. Politics are like musical tastes: a fantastic way to make any polite discussion go south incredibly quickly.

6.1 MSQ was... not as bad as I had feared, but I'll admit I went in with expectations low enough. I feel like it could never be as bad as 6.0 was for me. I'm pleased our little "adventure" was little more than a thinly-veiled excuse for Void shenanigans, because I'll confess I have a very hard time getting excited for average treasure hunting adventurer stuff, so any talk of Shard travel can only be better. I don't care much for Vrtra or dragons in general, but hey... Void stuff! How long until they make the Warring Triad quests finally required for MSQ? Because if I go there I want to go with Unu.

Speaking of, naturally, I'm grateful for the single mention of Elidibus with regards to Unukalhai and Cylva. This is the villain fetishist in me speaking here, but I shamelessly love when the plot reminds me that my favorite characters are bastards who did bastard things. Elidibus is the Manipulate, Mansplain, Malewife to Venat's Gaslight, Gatekeep, Girlboss and I am here for it. With that said though, with the narrative's continued refusal to criticize Venat's actions, Y'shtola calling Elidibus out on his use of Unukalhai and Cylva feels pretty double-standard-ish, huh...

And, yeah. The codex entry. I liked it better when I hadn't read it and just thought "Hydaelyn" referred to the planet like the moron I am. idk how the English version goes, but the French entry says she did the Sundering "to stop those who would give all future lives in hopes of restoring days gone", and once again bashes us over the head with how much she loved the planet and its inhabitants over all. You know, it's... just... doubling down on this horribly disappointing story. Sigh. The very worst thing about this is how fantastic a villain she would have made. The under-your-skin toxic mother figure who simply knows what's best for you, sweetie. I mean, this is where I thought they were going with the Loporrits (and the hellscape that is Smileton), but then they didn't haha they're just super cute. Changing her into a villain would be excessively simple: literally just leave everything as is. You would only have to bring in someone calling her out. That her way might not have been the only one. That she gave up on them all and never gave them a chance. She allowed her people to drive straight off the edge, and then wagged her finger at them for not crashing down at the bottom of the ravine quite correctly enough.
I miss Shadowbringers when this had a semblance of greyness to it all.

Last thing: how long are we going to hang on every word Emet-Selch ever uttered before leaving? I feel like the plot has been (metaphorically – sit down, you!) fellating him for two and a half years after his actual death, though I suppose that's just the Lord of the Underworld for you. If I get another flashback of him listing off places to go, I might... idk, mildly sigh in resignation I suppose.

On a positive note though, great production values on the 24-man raid. Voice acting for all bosses and a song? Even the regular boss theme is decently epic. Very pleasantly surprised.

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Originally Posted by Krithas

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Thank you for posting and echoing what many of us here felt. I have no idea why they decided to veer away from the "both sides had their points" greyness of Shadowbringers and replace it with "yeah, Venat knew everything and was right and her way was the only way forward (please don't look too closely)". It just diminishes everything.

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Originally Posted by Cach

Add me to the "I thought I was alone and going insane until I saw this thread" club.

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Welcome to the club, we have Bird of Elpis tendies

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

And then Endwalker retroactively spat in it's face and worked to shatter everything its predecessor built up by going "actually the Sundered are just better" and trying to paint it like the original people were arrogant bliss-obsessed idiots instead of the scholarly gentle people we knew them to be, And of course, the person responsible for their eradication was the only one who knew the truth, and is just absolutely vindicated by being RIGHT.

It genuinely is so baffling that I almost refuse to believe they are written by the same person. I can only assume people higher up the food chain muddied these waters somehow, it's that insane to me.

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Yyyyyup.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

There is a reason why people loved the Heavensward light party of the WoL, Estinien, Ysayle, and Alphinaud so much, (Bear with me and try to remember the Alphinaud post ARR that had some true depth to him) and that's because it had conflict.

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I recently played Heavensward again on alt #6, and I had this exact same reflexion – not just with Ysayle and Estinien, but also with my favorite non-Ascian, Nero. I loved rewatching the scenes with him interacting with the city state leaders, the Scions and his hubby. Not just because he's such a delight to watch and listen to (of course his pronoun would be ore-sama), but also because of the tension his presence creates. Endwalker direly lacked a morally ambiguous character or outright villain chatting with us, providing conflict within the main cast and a different point of view. In fact, considering the success of Shadowbringers largely rested on Emet-Selch's presence in the story, it is baffling the devs did not realize this.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

The only character I actively hate is Venat/Hydaelyn. Even reprehensible figures like Valens I feel less vitriol for because he is never presented as anything other than what he is, a particularly nasty villain. And Hermes? He's an absolute donkey but in the end he wiped his own memory like a coward so that he had no idea what was coming. Venat retained hers and and remained nothing but calculating and manipulative to the last. She doesn't even have his pathetic excuse.

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Thank you for putting words on something about Hermes that just peeved me and made me enjoy Fandaniel that much better. He doesn't even own up to his own acts. Just completely absolves himself from any responsibility under the guise of "objectivity" (I would argue any objectivity here was compromised by knowing the catastrophic results of his "test" BECAUSE A TIME TRAVELLER TOLD THEM). It's like the dude just pushed the doomsday button out of spite and then goes "uuhhh ha haha oops", whistling and pulling on his collar, just kinda pretending he wasn't there like a 5-year-old child. He had to be a coward about it, didn't he?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Edit: I repressed Hermes/Fandaniel from my memory.

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Understandable, have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Same... But seeing as she can use Armiger, all will be forgiven once they add Kingsglaive as a job. Make it happen SQUARE!!!

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Ngl, if they do added it, I think I will never switch job lol.

Scouting job, mystic knight style (reverse rdm). OGCD skill using different weapon visual (like mch drill, chainsaw, etc). Do it Square.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Not gonna lie, when I read the live letter when they said that Hermes and Meteion characters were based on "social media (like twitter)", that I began to.......question the integrity of the writing team, lets put it that way.

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It definitely struck me as a weird angle. Plenty of people - myself included - either don't use Twitter or only ever make use of it very sparingly.

After how thought provoking ShB proved to be I just can't fathom why EW doubled down on the attempts at pushing such childish 'themes'.

Thinking on it further, it's outright cowardly that the writers did not show the direct effects of Venat's actions. Instead of the caricatures we saw in the Dead Ends and Venat's walk of shame we really needed to see the Sundering from the perspective of some regular, normal Ancients who were just trying to do right by their loved ones only to be brutally subjected to genocide.

I'll say one thing in Blizzard's favour, at least they were prepared to show whatever Sylvanas did even if they didn't follow through on realistic consequences for the character. They didn't hide the situation in Teldrassil with fluffy 'feel good' language, either.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Ilberd/Venat

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She has the benefit of having gotten rid of those who were victimized by her, or conveniently wiping their memories... or being written out of the plot, in the case of the Ascians who are aware. Oh, and the best PR that anyone can buy. Avert your eyes, just look at the puppies and rainbows! (although it is funny that the WoL seemingly doesn't care about Emet's misdeeds now)

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Not gonna lie, when I read the live letter when they said that Hermes and Meteion characters were based on "social media (like twitter)", that I began to.......question the integrity of the writing team, lets put it that way.

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Wait, did I miss this or repress this from memory? Oh no... I need a source on this so I can laugh.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

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Welcome back, it hasn't changed much, and we still have plenty of copium tanks. I do think the devs did not quite understand why ShB was praised so hard. "Oh, they liked Emet? Well, let's just shove him in as much as possible! Remember, we planned this out the whole time and didn't base it off of fan reception! *wink*" IMO having a sundered Ascian who caught wind of Fandaniel's maniacal plan and sought to oppose him by joining up with us while still being spicy and disagreeing with us and adding a much-needed different perspective (and criticism of our sparkle-queen) would have certainly made me less rabid about the story. Just a bit.

As an aside it also still strikes me as funny that I see people acting as if the Sundered are all hurling themselves off of cliffs on a daily basis and complaining not enough of their bones are broken, while they wolf down cups of broken glass. Fundamentally the Sundered and Unsundered are same psychologically, wanting to avoid suffering (even if it causes more) and wanting a brighter, better future. It's just that the Sundered are weaker... and more prone to falling prey to their dark nature, which the Ascians used to their advantage, while the Unsundered were better at keeping it under wraps unless under extreme circumstances. Like the end of the world, for one.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Not gonna lie, when I read the live letter when they said that Hermes and Meteion characters were based on "social media (like twitter)", that I began to.......question the integrity of the writing team, lets put it that way.

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The hilarious thing was seeing people on Twitter and reddit after that letter talking about how genius it was as an idea. It was, like, so deep man. Almost as deep as "life is suffering" as a concept. Seriously, who hit Ishikawa over the head with the bad writer stick during this writing process?

I think part of the problem is that the writers assume that people just relate with the Sundered first and foremost because 'tHeY aRe Us', conveniently ignoring that actually many of us relate to or at least sympathise with the game's antagonists. In no small part because they do a pretty impressive job defying fate and finding ways to try and continue surviving despite being forced to navigate impossibly brutal situations with no convenient quick fixes and attempts at sabotaging their efforts at every turn.

I don't care for most self proclaimed 'heroes'. They're not good people. They're selfish people who prioritise their own interests and that of their loved ones only to screech and drool over themselves as they call out the 'bad guys' who in many cases are behaving no differently...but happen to have actual stakes and meaningful losses to deal with.

All in all, it all comes back to a weird insistence that the 'bad guys' are an inconvenience for not giving up on their loved ones, or letting themselves go extinct/be subjected to genocide. Whereas the moment some minor character that the 'heroes' like is mildly inconvenienced heaven and earth need to be moved in other to save them.

Yawn.

Don't feed me a plot about 'mOvInG oN' when you're not even prepared to ever have the status quo for the protagonists change. WoW handled it better despite its flaws. At least it cared enough to realise that having the same leader for every city in the same position for over a decade wasn't a good idea.

My main regret was buying into the idea that this game was going to have a consistently mature and thought provoking story.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

My main regret was buying into the idea that this game was going to have a consistently mature and thought provoking story.

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And now it seems that those of us who were captivated by the likes of Heavensward and Shadowbringers must now cede territory to those who'd be content with circular fluff plots that go nowhere, combined with job changes that range from meh to ludicrous.