Dark Knight Megathread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I go full balance mode with some semblance of fun and you hate it... I go full game-breaker mode complete with ALL OF THE FUN and you STILL hate it...

What do you want other than "more Shadowbringers Dark Knight"?

---

My pointing out where something, by the description given, would not accomplish your stated desires or would not be remotely feasible is not "hating" it.

Nor does the above make me unappeasable. By those two data points you mentioned, I would think it pretty clear that I want something less homogeneous and with more spread APM than current DRK but not utterly broken/ridiculous/game-breaking. That's not exactly a tight constraint.

But again, nor do my desires matter to the feedback I've given you. I've simply pointed out the likely outcomes.

But okay, to restate what I want:

• Remove the clunkiness of Spells not being affected by SkS.
• Raise DRK's APM outside of the two-minute bursts.
• Very slightly decrease DRK's APM over the first 15s of each 2-minute burst (as to make more time for defensives).
• Diversify DRK's defensive CDs so they don't just feel like reskins of a shared template.
• Replace Darkside as a mechanic, perhaps centering it around a flexible-duration buff/stance with more than just offensive implications.
• Separate Blood Weapon from Delirium, as not to basically have them be one action that nonetheless costs two buttons, and rework either or both as to be more unique to DRK.
• Make Living Shadow more than a mere DoT; it should have a palpable gameplay effect.
• Give DRK more non-combo offensive button presses in the lulls between minute-to-minute bursts.
• Increase DRK sustain (especially, its self-healing -- since its mitigation is already high enough that an increase to both forms of sustain could make its mitigation slightly excessive).
• Perhaps grant DRK a further central gimmick beyond the Darkside replacement.
• Slightly reduce button bloat across what couldn't be diversified (e.g., roll Oblation into TBN).
• Improve DRK's defensive kit at lower levels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But okay, to restate what I want:

• Remove the clunkiness of Spells not being affected by SkS.
• Raise DRK's APM outside of the two-minute bursts.
• Very slightly decrease DRK's APM over the first 15s of each 2-minute burst (as to make more time for defensives).
• Diversify DRK's defensive CDs so they don't just feel like reskins of a shared template.
• Replace Darkside as a mechanic, perhaps centering it around a flexible-duration buff/stance with more than just offensive implications.
• Separate Blood Weapon from Delirium, as not to basically have them be one action that nonetheless costs two buttons, and rework either or both as to be more unique to DRK.
• Make Living Shadow more than a mere DoT; it should have a palpable gameplay effect.
• Give DRK more non-combo offensive button presses in the lulls between minute-to-minute bursts.
• Increase DRK sustain (especially, its self-healing -- since its mitigation is already high enough that an increase to both forms of sustain could make its mitigation slightly excessive).
• Perhaps grant DRK a further central gimmick beyond the Darkside replacement.
• Slightly reduce button bloat across what couldn't be diversified (e.g., roll Oblation into TBN).
• Improve DRK's defensive kit at lower levels.

---

I am going to go through these one by one to let you know what I agree and disagree with, and then give a list of what I basically want for changes. Things I agree with won't go into that list since that would be redundant...

Clunkiness of spells not being affected by skill speed is not a Dark Knight exclusive issue, just see Paladin and MAYBE Reaper... but yes I do agree with this one because this is more a general quality of life change where skill speed and spell speed just become 1 Haste stat... that is held back from being done because of 1.0 spaghetti code... And nothing can convince me otherwise...

Very slightly decrease Dark Knight's APM over the first 15 seconds of each burst...? Okay this one is not realistic because the way you worded it is just so weird... Like I suggested turning some oGCDs INTO GCDs and you were against that but you want to reduce the APM for something as vague as 2-minute burst...? Which is it? More APM or less APM? you cannot have both at the exact same time...

Defensive cooldowns... yeah, the only way this will happen on Dark Knight is if it has Bloodbath effect on EVERY defensive cooldown... which, as much as I hate to say it, will never happen...

Darkside I wish was just old Blood of the Dragon but for Dark Knight going into Shadowbringers, but that's just me... I still standby on those Darkside changes I proposed even DESPITE IT being unhinged... same with merging Blood Weapon, Blood Price and Living Shadow into 1 cooldown, since it's supposed to represent your mastery over your Darkside with Living Shadow BASICALLY giving you OG Darkside black flames aura, on your character, while also cutting back on the button bloat, though instead of
old Blood of the Dragon, basically have it be a toggle that you turn on/off and have it Drain MP in combat like in 3.x... the reason I decided to lump multiple things on the list is me not wanting to be redundant...!

Already covered Living Shadow, though capping at 300 Potency increase as opposed to +20% Damage Up + 15% Haste, with MP being restored when you deal AND take damage outside of MP spenders and generate 5 Blood Gauge passively every 3 seconds, and 10 Blood Gauge whenever you do an offensive action that isn't auto attacks or Blood Gauge spenders, though as opposed to 500 + all of what just mentioned might be better for game balance, but game balance is already broken... just look at Warriors... and Paladins...

The sustain I already went over with defensive cooldowns...

Rolling Oblation into TBN sounds like that could potentially work...

Improving defensive kit at lower levels is no brainer, everyone wants that, but I already covered that...

Now for what I BASICALLY want for myself:

• Bring back Dark Passenger, just have it be its own seperate cooldown at level 40, no merging it with Shadowbringer or any other ability, and CERTAINLY NO SHARING A COOLDOWN WITH ANOTHER ABILITY. Just a flat 30-60 second cooldown that does 300 potency AoE damage in a straight line.
• Speaking of Shadowbringer, remove the charge as it is unnecessary, just have it be a 60-120 second cooldown, that's it...
• Salted Earth upgrade into Salt and Darkness properly, complete with instant 400 something potency, and a 20 second cooldown, because there is no reason for Salt and Darkness to be on 20 second cooldown on a 90 second cooldown with a 15 second duration.
• Better gameplay representation of mastering your Darkside... the way it was handled in Shadowbringers and Endwalker is TERRIBLE... see my unhinged Darkside rework for more details...
• Making Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain into proper GCDs along with Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and try make a combo path for both by using 5.x Living Shadow attack cycle as a basis, minus the Plunge... while also have the potency of both being the same in single target which more than likely requires a lot moving stuff around to lower levels and adjust MP and Blood Gauge costs across the board. Or put simply, more GCDs, ESPECIALLY at the lower levels.
• Speaking of Plunge, make Plunge a cone AoE gap closer because I can handle more shapes than just circles... you know what, make all the tank gap closers cone AoEs, they earned it.
• Dark Mind doing more than just magical damage, maybe give 50% Parry Rate and 10% Physical Damage reduction by bringing back Dark Dance at lower levels...? Or just merge it with Dark Missionary by making Dark Mind become an 20% magic damage reduction AoE ability on 60 seconds... one of those is correct...
• Living Dead; no dumb doom debuff, no ending it early when you reach 100% or more HP recovered, just have it drop your HP to 1 but you cannot go below 1 HP, boost the duration of it(and all tank invulns for that matter) to 20 seconds and keep the cooldown timer the same... It's not rocket science... or least shouldn't be...
• Enmity combos so that way I don't have to turn on tank stance and rip aggro from the guy who is already main tank so that way I don't have to get yelled at by the healers for ripping aggro from the main tank. Just make it as close to DPS neutral as possible...so long as I don't have to turn on tank stance on when I'm off tanking, I would rather my healers not being angry with me for either ripping aggro, or not having enough aggro because main tank died...

I may have missed something but I'm not 100% sure...

Also OVER 6000 CHARACTERS LONG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Very slightly decrease Dark Knight's APM over the first 15 seconds of each burst...? Okay this one is not realistic because the way you worded it is just so weird... Like I suggested turning some oGCDs INTO GCDs and you were against that but you want to reduce the APM for something as vague as 2-minute burst...? Which is it? More APM or less APM? you cannot have both at the exact same time...

---

You can have more at point A and less at point B. Usually, this is called "moving" it.

For instance, if CnS, AD, and ShB each had a 3k MP cost, but Syphon Strike and Stalwart Soul each granted more MP (Delirium compensated in turn if it keeps the same functionality), then you'd have time to actually pop defensives within the 15s that all raid buffs (see the 15s duration on Battle Litany), are active per 2 minutes, but you'd have more oGCD casts over the periods between bursts.

Quote:

---

Defensive cooldowns... yeah, the only way this will happen on Dark Knight is if it has Bloodbath effect on EVERY defensive cooldown... which, as much as I hate to say it, will never happen...

---

How would giving DRK "Bloodbath effect on EVERY defensive cooldown" necessarily "diversify DRK's defensive CDs"?

Quote:

---

Already covered Living Shadow, though capping at 300 Potency increase as opposed to +20% Damage Up + 15% Haste, with MP being restored when you deal AND take damage outside of MP spenders and generate 5 Blood Gauge passively every 3 seconds, and 10 Blood Gauge whenever you do an offensive action that isn't auto attacks or Blood Gauge spenders, though as opposed to 500 + all of what just mentioned might be better for game balance, but game balance is already broken... just look at Warriors... and Paladins...

---

From where are you getting this alternative "+20% Damage Up + 15% Haste" that you're opposed to? Is the "MP being restored when you deal AND take damage outside of MP spenders and generate 5 Blood Gauge passively every 3 seconds" part of your suggestion or that alternative? Same question for "10 Blood Gauge whenever you do an offensive action that isn't auto attacks or Blood Gauge spenders"?

Finally, no... the game balance isn't particularly broken. Every job is viable, and WAR while overgearing content quickly squishes the self-sustain advantage Warriors carry while DRK's lower self-sustain quickly becomes a non-issue and its aDPS therefore increasingly makes it a preferred tank to slot at least one of, each tank is actually pretty tightly balanced right now.

Quote:

---

Improving defensive kit at lower levels... I already covered that...

---

You asked me... for what all I wanted. That is an important part of what I want.

Should I have avoided any parts we may have in common despite not necessarily knowing what those parts are? That seems like it would risk more confusion than it's worth.

[Regarding your suggestions, if you want an second opinion on any of them.]

Quote:

---

Bring back Dark Passenger

---

Sounds fine.

Quote:

---

Shadowbringer... remove the [second] charge... just have it be a 60-120 second cooldown

---

I'm slightly against this, as the added flexibility from that charge makes the skill feel hugely more fluid in dungeons and does, ultimately, make the 2-minute bursts a bit more interesting. Especially if you're returning a 30s CD Dark Passenger (or if you give it as 40s and have that upgrade to a 2-charge ShB), it doesn't seem necessary to remove the second charge.

It's no Tsubame Gaeshi or the like that would anchor one's rotation, leaving it barren if used only per 2 minutes / overcrowded when two uses are stacked into each 2-minute burst, so it seems better to allow it full fluidity and exploitability.

Quote:

---

Salted Earth upgrade into Salt and Darkness properly, complete with instant 400 something potency, and a 20 second cooldown, because there is no reason for Salt and Darkness to be on 20 second cooldown on a 90 second cooldown with a 15 second duration.

---

Salt and Darkness is currently just the name for a feature within Salted Earth itself. If you remove Salted Earth and just have Salt and Darkness, you can no longer pre-place and delay that AoE. You'd then have just replaced Salted Earth with an instant self-centered AoE of 400 potency on a short CD -- essentially WAR's Orogeny, but on a shorter CD and more twice the damage... I'm not a fan of this idea.

Quote:

---

Better gameplay representation of mastering your Darkside...

---

Sounds good.

Quote:

---

Speaking of Plunge, make Plunge a cone AoE gap closer because I can handle more shapes than just circles... you know what, make all the tank gap closers cone AoEs, they earned it.

---

Why give it an AoE? And why a cone specifically? Moreover, would this cone originate from point of departure or impact? Would it stack with the targeted damage or replace it?

Quote:

---

Dark Mind doing more than just magical damage, maybe give 50% Parry Rate and 10% Physical Damage reduction by bringing back Dark Dance at lower levels...?

---

Would this be an additional CD, a CD on a shared recast timer with Dark Mind, a replacement for Dark Mind, or an additional effect attached to Dark Mind?

50% Parry Rate +10% Physical DR would average to 20% DR. If you stack that atop Dark Mind, not only would DRK have the shortest CD of any mid-DR, but the one with the greatest total coverage.

Quote:

---

Living Dead; no dumb doom debuff, no ending it early when you reach 100% or more HP recovered, just have it drop your HP to 1 but you cannot go below 1 HP, boost the duration of it(and all tank invulns for that matter) to 20 seconds and keep the cooldown timer the same... It's not rocket science... or least shouldn't be...

---

Indifferent to the doom removal, though I'm against giving Living Dead any more than 12 seconds' duration (just to deal with heal-tick delay from latency and/or GCD desync) or any other invuln more duration than they have now. I'd rather see Invulns deemphasized, not made more cheesy.

Quote:

---

Enmity combos so that way I don't have to turn on tank stance and rip aggro from the guy who is already main tank

---

You can feather the tank stance... Or just... turn it after the pull but before the first mechanic that might target second-highest Enmity. There is no need to spend an extra 2+ buttons for specifically High-Enmity versions of our combo actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You can have more at point A and less at point B. Usually, this is called "moving" it.

For instance, if CnS, AD, and ShB each had a 3k MP cost, but Syphon Strike and Stalwart Soul each granted more MP (Delirium compensated in turn if it keeps the same functionality), then you'd have time to actually pop defensives within the 15s that all raid buffs (see the 15s duration on Battle Litany), are active per 2 minutes, but you'd have more oGCD casts over the periods between bursts.

---

So... basically have it's oGCD rotation be similar to Dragoon...? Did I get that right...? If I did, then I actually have no problem with that, IF it's GCD rotation was more like a Reaper... and my big gripe with Dark Knight is the lackluster GCD rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How would giving DRK "Bloodbath effect on EVERY defensive cooldown" necessarily "diversify DRK's defensive CDs"?

---

To make it feel more like Dark Knight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

From where are you getting this alternative "+20% Damage Up + 15% Haste" that you're opposed to? Is the "MP being restored when you deal AND take damage outside of MP spenders and generate 5 Blood Gauge passively every 3 seconds" part of your suggestion or that alternative? Same question for "10 Blood Gauge whenever you do an offensive action that isn't auto attacks or Blood Gauge spenders"?

---

I think I understand why you're confused... this is supposed to represent mastery of your Darkside on a gameplay level starting with Blood Price and it eventually becomes Living Shadow hence all of those effects plastered at the end of what I think Living Shadow should be and should have(hopefully that explains it a lot better)... which is a lot better than how Shadowbringers and Endwalker handled it... we could just get rid of Living Shadow, even though I really want that black flame aura... but it's fine, I don't even need the 300-500 potency anyway... heck I'll even settle for 50 potency increase if it means I get those cool black flames on my Darkside aura.

(unrelated tangent: and no I don't care if it looks stupid on chocobos, give my chocobo Dark Knight barding already.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You asked me... for what all I wanted. That is an important part of what I want.

---

I did. And I can somewhat understand your reasoning for some of the the things you want but not all of them... it's a start at least...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Should I have avoided any parts we may have in common despite your own desires being sometimes difficult to understand? That seems like it would risk more confusion than it's worth.

---

That is a fair point... And yeah I can be... pretty stubborn... for lack of a better phrase... at times... that I cannot deny... though that is your choice to make and I understand why you would want to avoid talking about any points we MIGHT have in common...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm slightly against this, as the added flexibility from that charge makes the skill feel hugely more fluid in dungeons and does, ultimately, make the 2-minute bursts a bit more interesting. Especially if you're returning a 30s CD Dark Passenger (or if you give it as 40s and have that upgrade to a 2-charge ShB), it doesn't seem necessary to remove the second charge.

It's no Tsubame Gaeshi or the like that would anchor one's rotation, leaving it barren if used only per 2 minutes / overcrowded when two uses are stacked into each 2-minute burst, so it seems better to allow it full fluidity and exploitability.

---

I can somewhat see why you would disagree with this idea, but would it be at LEAST okay to rework Dark Arts to be similar to at least 1 Dragoon's Dragon Gauge mechanics...? For Shadowbringer I mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Salt and Darkness is currently just the name for a feature within Salted Earth itself. If you remove Salted Earth and just have Salt and Darkness, you can no longer pre-place and delay that AoE. You'd then have just replaced Salted Earth with an instant self-centered AoE of 400 potency on a short CD -- essentially WAR's Orogeny, but on a shorter CD and more twice the damage... I'm not a fan of this idea.

---

I actually 100% understand WHY you're against this idea... my issue with Salt and Darkness boils down to the cooldown of Salted Earth being too long and combined with short duration... IF the duration of Salted Earth was 30 seconds or even 35, I would actually leave both alone... maybe give Salted Earth a second charge but that would be about it IF the duration was long enough to get at LEAST 2 Salt and Darkness in the Salted Earth window, and that's a big maybe from me...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why give it an AoE? And why a cone specifically? Moreover, would this cone originate from point of departure or impact? Would it stack with the targeted damage or replace it

---

Let's get the "why AoE AND cone" out of the way first... More AoE damage is good for pulling in dungeons in general, also I believe the cone covers the targets you are trying to hit better as opposed to a circle, but then you gotta factor server ticks for both cones and circles and that is too much to figure out on my own...

Basically Dragonfire Dive on Dragoon, if it was a cone AoE... Does that make any sense...? Because I don't think I could explain it any better than that...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Would this be an additional CD, a CD on a shared recast timer with Dark Mind, a replacement for Dark Mind, or an additional effect attached to Dark Mind?

50% Parry Rate +10% Physical DR would average to 20% DR. If you stack that atop Dark Mind, not only would DRK have the shortest CD of any mid-DR, but the one with the greatest total coverage.

---

Dark Mind would be an upgrade for Dark Dance... the alternative would upgrade Dark Mind into Dark Missionary with which would be AoE Dark Mind which 20% Magic Damage reduction and 60 second cooldown which I do want to keep those numbers, and as for the level, it has to between 60 and 70 because of Ultimates...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Indifferent to the doom removal, though I'm against giving Living Dead any more than 12 seconds' duration (just to deal with heal-tick delay from latency and/or GCD desync) or any other invuln more duration than they have now. I'd rather see Invulns deemphasized, not made more cheesy.

---

Well it's not like you going to cheese a lot of mechanics to begin within those 20 seconds and 4-8 minutes waiting to cheese a mechanic is a pretty long time and the 20 seconds thing on all invulns thing would be to make up for the fact that Living Dead no longer stinks and it's only fair to give the other tanks a second duration on their invulns... But then again, there's always the option to delete invulns... which leads into a WHOLE new question... would you get rid of tank invulns for shorter cooldown timers damage reduction skills...?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You can feather the tank stance... Or just... turn it after the pull but before the first mechanic that might target second-highest Enmity. There is no need to spend an extra 2+ buttons for specifically High-Enmity versions of our combo actions.

---

I don't think we could see eye to eye on the enmity generation for tanks, though I suppose we can probably thank the Ninja job for that... if the resource generation was the same for the basic and High-Enmity combos where the only difference was for overall potency maybe 10 less potency total for High-Enmity combo, but for me it's probably more about wanting more GCDs on Dark Knight than anything...

And now I'm worried we're going be back we started because 1 of us misunderstood what the other said...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

So... basically have it's oGCD rotation be similar to Dragoon...? Did I get that right...?

---

Not really, no. Just roughly 3 oGCDs fewer during the 2-minute bursts and >3 oGCDs more between those bursts, as would be the effect of making the other oGCD attacks cost (the usual 3k) MP but increasing MP generation per action by more than enough to compensate for that.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

How would giving DRK "Bloodbath effect on EVERY defensive cooldown" necessarily "diversify DRK's defensive CDs"?

---

To make it feel more like Dark Knight.

---

But again, why would that necessarily be "more like Dark Knight"? Dark Knight has historically had HP-spending actions about as often as HP-generating ones. Moreover, in XIV, Warrior has already been the 'live by the sword, die by the sword' healing-rather-than-mitigation job that survives through damage dealt. While that, like DRK's initial theme with more versatility (or, choicefully allocated resources / chosen spenders), has been watered down over time, it's still probably the more natural fit given either job's identities as established here thus far.

Quote:

---

Forcing me to be redundant, I see...

---

Only to be clear, preferably.

Quote:

---

would it at LEAST okay to rework Dark Arts to be similar to at least 1 Dragoon's Dragon Gauge mechanics...?

---

Which gauge, and to what purpose? Scales? Eyes? What mechanic is it supposed to fund / be funded by?

Dark Arts is currently just a fancy name for the feature that allows TBN to be more flexibly timed than the other on-demand CDs. Will you be leaving that feature as is when taking the name for something else (such as each Shadowbringer requiring two "Eyes/Scales" --each generated from another ability-- for it to be cast, or each granting an "Eye/Scale" to be spent on some other/further ability)?

Moreover, what is your intent in reducing DRK's opener and only its opener (not any burst cycle thereafter)? Such mechanics already pretty uniquely mess with the opening rDPS of DRG (via LotD not being available for the opener) and the Physical Ranged DPS; would this be intended to indirectly nerf the contribution of potions and to make it more normal not to have a kit's full strength available in the opener? What's the intent here?

Quote:

---

Dark Mind would be an upgrade for Dark Dance...

---

Then you'd be replacing what you've specified as a 10-30% (average: 20%) physical mitigation + 10% magical mitigation skill... with a 20% magical mitigation (+ maybe 10% physical mitigation?) skill on the same CD... Why?

Quote:

---

Well it's not like you going to cheese a lot of mechanics to begin within those 20 seconds

---

I don't have the time right now to go through each fight to show you where 20-second invulns would offer additional free mitigation, nor is it uniquely breaking fights or the like the issue. The problem is that the more powerful they are, the more they devalue the rest of the kit -- and far more so if allowed such absurd (i.e., double and already overlong) duration.

Quote:

---

Let's get the "why AoE AND cone" out of the way first... More AoE damage is good for pulling in dungeons in general, also I believe the cone covers the targets you are trying to hit better as opposed to a circle, but then you gotta factor server ticks for both cones and circles and that is too much to figure out on my own...

---

The effect of server ticks isn't going to vary between circles and cones except in that, at similar total square area, the first will have lower range but will feel more lenient. In general, a circle will probably tend to be a bit more intuitive for a gap-closer because you generally tend to use the gap-closer to get distance, not just as a short dash to the outermost enemy from which to fit all enemies into the cone. The latter tends to work better for after you've at least face-pulled, since then you can gather the enemies and potentially jump towards the back of the group, aiming the cone backwards into the more gathered enemies. A circle, on the other hand, allows you to jump straight to the center of the pack. Neither is inherently better, but the cone is more likely to appear to "ghost", failing to hit enemies that the animation crossed over because of how far apart the server-side unit positions are from how their portrayed to the player.

To be clear, given the same units-squared of area either way, I'm more a fan of cones that circles for most AoEs. I just think you'd end up with very frequent "ghosting" if you attached a cone to a gap-closer, and generally frustrating players more for their being cones than if you attached a circle AoE, especially if you don't shift the cone's point of origin to some 2-4 yalms behind the player (at which point, you lose much of the extra range anyways).

All that being said, I truly don't think it'd matter. The main change you're going to face in strapping an AoE to a gap-closer is that in dungeons / add spawns you then make it less a gap-closer than a source of AoE damage, which can make it feel less responsive. In short, you'd trade QoL for one little thing more to optimize, which you'll then likely be balanced around (meaning you're at the same output ceiling, but nerfed for not optimizing).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not really, no. Just roughly 3 oGCDs fewer during the 2-minute bursts and >3 oGCDs more between those bursts, as would be the effect of making the other oGCD attacks cost (the usual 3k) MP but increasing MP generation per action by more than enough to compensate for that.

---

The reason I made the Dragoon comparison is because there's not a whole lot of jobs to compare to what I think you're trying to say... and right now Dragoon is the only job I do play that somewhat fits what you're trying to say but... I think it's the way you're wording the sentence that's causing more confusion than it should...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But again, why would that necessarily be "more like Dark Knight"? Dark Knight has historically had HP-spending actions about as often as HP-generating ones. Moreover, in XIV, Warrior has already been the 'live by the sword, die by the sword' healing-rather-than-mitigation job that survives through damage dealt. While that, like DRK's initial theme with more versatility (or, choicefully allocated resources / chosen spenders), has been watered down over time, it's still probably the more natural fit given either job's identities as established here thus far.

---

Basically have Dark Knight be able to sustain themselves for much longer periods than Warrior, mostly because of dark magic, rather than short bursts like Warrior...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which gauge, and to what purpose? Scales? Eyes?

---

This is the question where I need to be a smart-aleck; Yes...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What mechanic is it supposed to fund / be funded by?

---

Either Shadowbringer or Salted Earth + Salt and Darkness... but both are also eligible...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Dark Arts is currently just a fancy name for the feature that allows TBN to be more flexibly timed than the other on-demand CDs. Will you be leaving that feature as is when taking the name for something else (such as each Shadowbringer requiring two "Eyes/Scales" --each generated from another ability-- for it to be cast, or each granting an "Eye/Scale" to be spent on some other/further ability)?

Moreover, what is your intent in reducing DRK's opener and only its opener (not any burst cycle thereafter)? Such mechanics already pretty uniquely mess with the opening rDPS of DRG (via LotD not being available for the opener) and the Physical Ranged DPS; would this be intended to indirectly nerf the contribution of potions and to make it more normal not to have a kit's full strength available in the opener? What's the intent here?

---

I think this is one of those issues that not even an AI could fix even if they tried... because the devs REALLY botched Dark Arts going into Shadowbringers, and this is just one of those problems we can only fix by adding another gauge to Dark Knight gauge UI, or just scrap it entirely... not without completely re-working the job from the ground up of course... assuming we're avoiding specifically re-working the job from the ground up of course...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then you'd be replacing what you've specified as a 10-30% (average: 20%) physical mitigation + 10% magical mitigation skill... with a 20% magical mitigation (+ maybe 10% physical mitigation?) skill on the same CD... Why?

---

Probably to make mitigating attacks in dungeons feel less bad in dungeons I guess, but that's just me... but again, adding Bloodbath effect also helps, so long as the healing from the Bloodbath effect isn't too much, because I do want to have the Bloodbath effect balanced to where we wouldn't need to compromise recast timers...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't have the time right now to go through each fight to show you where 20-second invulns would offer additional free mitigation, nor is it uniquely breaking fights or the like the issue. The problem is that the more powerful they are, the more they devalue the rest of the kit -- and far more so if allowed such absurd (i.e., double and already overlong) duration.

---

But would you get rid of invulns if meant shorter recast timers on defensive cooldowns though...? I would do it just to see everyone's reactions...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The effect of server ticks isn't going to vary between circles and cones except in that, at similar total square area, the first will have lower range but will feel more lenient. In general, a circle will probably tend to be a bit more intuitive for a gap-closer because you generally tend to use the gap-closer to get distance, not just as a short dash to the outermost enemy from which to fit all enemies into the cone. The latter tends to work better for after you've at least face-pulled, since then you can gather the enemies and potentially jump towards the back of the group, aiming the cone backwards into the more gathered enemies. A circle, on the other hand, allows you to jump straight to the center of the pack. Neither is inherently better, but the cone is more likely to appear to "ghost", failing to hit enemies that the animation crossed over because of how far apart the server-side unit positions are from how their portrayed to the player.

To be clear, given the same units-squared of area either way, I'm more a fan of cones that circles for most AoEs. I just think you'd end up with very frequent "ghosting" if you attached a cone to a gap-closer, and generally frustrating players more for their being cones than if you attached a circle AoE, especially if you don't shift the cone's point of origin to some 2-4 yalms behind the player (at which point, you lose much of the extra range anyways).

All that being said, I truly don't think it'd matter. The main change you're going to face in strapping an AoE to a gap-closer is that in dungeons / add spawns you then make it less a gap-closer than a source of AoE damage, which can make it feel less responsive. In short, you'd trade QoL for one little thing more to optimize, which you'll then likely be balanced around (meaning you're at the same output ceiling, but nerfed for not optimizing).

---

That... is a lot to take in... too galaxy brain for me to figure out... Like the cone is supposed to be in front of the player, not behind the player... kinda like Warrior's OG Overpower weaponskill...

Also I feel like that gap closer potencies are at least balanced for AoE since they are also on charges and are on 30 second cooldown, at least in my opinion... but that's just it... an opinion... this does feel like one those things where a bit more back and forth to figure out the best course of action if we go for the AoE route for gap closers, outside of adding circle AoE gap closer with the same potency nad maybe slightly longer cooldown, of course...

Converting 25% of damage dealt into self healing probably be best way to balance the long periods of self sustain, though I will admit it might be to much still... that's at least 5 defensives that Dark Knight could potentially gain a Bloodbath effect from, 6 if we count Living Dead assuming it's still there... and 3 of those have the potential to give other people Bloodbath effect, those being The Blackest Night, Dark Missionary, and Oblation which also has 2 charges, which is niche utility but could be worth having at least a little bit fun with... I'm trying to make sure that Bloodbath effect is at LEAST balanced enough on Dark Knight hence why I am saying this... this would also make a lot suggested changes I made about Dark Mind without Bloodbath effect null and void, because giving Dark Mind a Bloodbath effect would probably go a long way to make it feel less bad to use in dungeons...

Bloodbath is a marauder skill, why not lean back into abyssal drain being useful instead as it was in in stormblood?

I think it be cooler of DRK healed with magic abilities instead of stealing the WAR lifesteal gimmick.

Abyssal could be far more availalbe and not pointlessly stapled to C&S
Salted Earth could have a regen on it and a burst heal on salt and darkness

I'd rather see stuff like that.

If anything. Would rather them remove abyssal drain from CS cooldown. Remove the damage aspect of it. Put in on a 2 charge system with 30-45s cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

I think it be cooler of DRK healed with magic abilities instead of stealing the WAR lifesteal gimmick.

---

DRK originally was a middle ground between WAR and PLD, with both a lot of mitigation abilities like PLD, and a lot of healing potential through lifesteal like WAR. That's part of the reason why DRK still has it. IMO with as much healing potential WAR has gotten without Lifesteal abilities (Thrill of Battle, Equilibrium, Shake It Off), I feel it's the reverse...WAR should be the one losing the lifesteal, as angry man can be made too angry to die easily without it. Meanwhile ALL of DRK's healing is Lifesteal, so you wouldn't be able to change DRK's healing capabilities without completely gutting it, AGAIN.