Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by zeth07

Has anyone confirmed any lower acc than 468 without misses in Coil just from flank/rear attacks? Not counting AoEs or required front facing moments?

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I took about 465 into Turns 1-4 for about a month, no misses.

I forgot to use my coil gear set up and I end up at 428 acc n got twin down in 1 shot. I dont parse but I have a miss on the big snake when I performing disembowel facing front. Other than that I dont see any misses.

What does WD stand for? Weaponskills in general or a specific skill?



Anyway, I'm currently at a loss. Item level 90 (not BiS) and I still get outdamaged by BLM and sometimes a couple of bards in my FC even on static fights like Caduceus - and the BLM is well equipped but I think he didn't reach my level in terms of gear/item level. I might be wrong, since I know close to nothing about BLM gear, but still. He is a good player and can pull his weight even among other BLMs. As for me, I'm trying to understand what I am failing.

I do not use a set rotation, maybe this is the problem? I have always thought of this class as one of the most dynamic regarding combos, so I never really tried to follow strict patterns except for trying to maintain Heavy Thrust/Disembowel/Chaos Thrust/Phlebotomize (albeit a little less this last one) as long as possible before going Full thrust and so on till refresh. Of course I use Leg sweep, Jump (surged if possible), Dragonfire dive, Mercy stroke and Spineshatter dive between skills.

My buffs (Blood for blood and Internal release) at the beginning of the fight, then I tend to avoid using them unless those are paired (so I wait for BfB before activating IR again), and sometimes I do not use them if I know there is going to be either an "invulnerable time" (ultimate attack, jump in the air before another phase or I just need to stay away like during some bomb patterns in Titan) or there is going to be a DPS burst phase (Titan heart). Same thing applies to PS, SSD and DFD - Mercy stroke and Leg sweep should just be used whenever they are available, I think.

Should I just use them whenever they are off cooldown (unless it's invulnerability is coming) or stick to what I'm doing?

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

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You might try to moving to a somewhat set rotation. Mechanics vary from fight to fight of course but the only CD in my mind that warrants caution is B4B, you don't want to miss uptime due to invulnerability mechanics or stuff like Titan's stomps where the extra damage can easily kill you. (anyone else know about for T2, T4 enrage damage? I've only tanked/healed those).

When you say that you use buffs at the beginning of the fight, are you sitting there waiting for them before you start attacking? I tend to use them in between the GCD (HT>ID>B4B>DE>IR>CT>SSD, etc). I also tend to wait for power surge before using Jump again, as they are on pretty close CDs. Also, are you making sure not to clip DoTs, as in, making sure they run the full 30sec/15sec before reapplying? Following the recommended pattern on here is great for making sure you don't clip (or have minimal clipping at least).

My typical opening rotation:

HT - ID - B4B - DE - IR - CT - SSD - Ph - PS - TT - Jump - VT - Life Surge - FT

Sometimes there is enough HT left for a DFD, if not I just reapply Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize then DFD another TTT. If I know there are adds I'll save DFD, otherwise I just burn it with the combo trying to make sure to get it in before B4B drops off.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

I do not use a set rotation, maybe this is the problem? I have always thought of this class as one of the most dynamic regarding combos, so I never really tried to follow strict patterns except for trying to maintain Heavy Thrust/Disembowel/Chaos Thrust/Phlebotomize (albeit a little less this last one) as long as possible before going Full thrust and so on till refresh.

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Personally (correct me if I'm wrong guys) I'd say this is your biggest issue. DRG DO have a set rotation for maximum damage; I'd say you're thinking of MNK or BRD for a more "free-flowing" class (however, I don't know how to MNK at all, so don't take that as law).

Basic rotation is H - IDC - P - TTT - H - TTT - P - IDC - H - TTT - P - TTT (repeat). Use oGDCs as they come up, unless there is a fight mechanic coming up where you'd be wasting it (don't BFB before Ifrit's charges, for example)

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

What does WD stand for? Weaponskills in general or a specific skill?

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Weapon Damage. R+1 and EX weapons have 46 WD, for example.

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I do not use a set rotation, maybe this is the problem? I have always thought of this class as one of the most dynamic regarding combos,

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Your general priorities are accurate. However, if you are maximizing your priorities, then you will generally result in the current rotation. The rotation is built on the same priorities that you use; it just refines the timing a bit to increase uptime and resulting DPS slightly.

In Real Fights with Real Mechanics™ you will use both the rotation and priority for decision-making to maximize DPS. E.g. you will use the rotation in general for stable segments, then apply your priorities to specific targets or multiple targets.

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My buffs (Blood for blood and Internal release) at the beginning of the fight, then I tend to avoid using them unless those are paired (so I wait for BfB before activating IR again),

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Never wait on your buffs to synchronize. The bonus damage from the sync is minor compared to the % of buff time you lose by waiting.

Maybe i'm not understanding the charts right, for example if it states

"Determination: 135"

what does it infer?

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Originally Posted by snowybell

Maybe i'm not understanding the charts right, for example if it states

"Determination: 135"

what does it infer?

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That's the increase to your natural stats. I believe the base determination is 202, so that's 135 + 202 for 337 Determination total.

I see. Thanks for that.

Does DET really outweight CRIT by that much?
I was playing around with my sets, i liked seeing big numbers with 510 crit (constant hard hitting FTs), but i guess the way to go for the long run is determination?

Since i read that determination is .323 and crit is 0.184, i guess big numbers don't make up for the loss in DPS.

Hey ayvar, which is most up to date and more damaging. The YouTube video showing rotations or your initial post here? I wanna use that "second" rotation you displayed in YouTube using BFB right after HT. Or can I stick with the final form you have in the forum which has IR after HT instead.

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

Hey ayvar, which is most up to date and more damaging. The YouTube video showing rotations or your initial post here? I wanna use that "second" rotation you displayed in YouTube using BFB right after HT. Or can I stick with the final form you have in the forum which has IR after HT instead.

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Whatever contributions I have provided are contained within this thread only, including the most up-to-date rotation and the one I use myself. This is also why I prefer forum content over alternate methods such as Reddit or Youtube because new information can be very quickly provided/edited in, and you are not reliant on "upvotes" or likes, if someone has something new to say it gets added at the end of the thread and bumps it to the top. I have no Youtube videos, so I'm not sure to what you are referring to, but sticking to the advice contained within this thread should provide everything you require. Any new information will find its way into the discussion or main post very quickly.

Which reminds me that I should edit the accuracy section, I think we have enough information from the last month to be pretty confident about the back/flank/front accuracy differences.

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Originally Posted by snowybell

I see. Thanks for that.

Does DET really outweight CRIT by that much?
I was playing around with my sets, i liked seeing big numbers with 510 crit (constant hard hitting FTs), but i guess the way to go for the long run is determination?

Since i read that determination is .323 and crit is 0.184, i guess big numbers don't make up for the loss in DPS.

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I don't really know.. It seems like crit could put more damage out, especially if you got lucky with a string of them, but I guess Det is the more consistent stat and doesn't rely on RNG to be effective.

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

Hey ayvar, which is most up to date and more damaging. The YouTube video showing rotations or your initial post here? I wanna use that "second" rotation you displayed in YouTube using BFB right after HT. Or can I stick with the final form you have in the forum which has IR after HT instead.

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I thought that it was better to use B4B first because of the longer CD/longer duration. I don't know anything though lol

Also if KrystalF is still around, do you mind producing the same tables I have linked to in the main forum post (turn 5, pre-turn 5, pre-Primals), but going down to 458 accuracy instead of stopping at 460?

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Originally Posted by snowybell

Does DET really outweight CRIT by that much?

Since i read that determination is .323 and crit is 0.184, i guess big numbers don't make up for the loss in DPS.

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Per point, DTR destroys CRT. Keep in mind that every point of DTR takes up more gear budget than CRT however. For example, on a particular tier of item, the game may provide 11 DTR or 16 CRT. So you get more CRT for the same "slot" on an item compared to DTR.

This narrows the gap between DTR and CRT.

For example, each point is DTR is worth roughly ".323" to CRT's ".184". However, on a particular item you would get 11*.323 = 3.553 value from DTR versus 16*.184 = 2.944 value frmo CRT.

DTR is still better, since 3.553 > 2.944, but it's not by a gigantic amount.


That aside, you get the biggest crits with more DTR because then you have the highest base damage ^_^.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Whatever contributions I have provided are contained within this thread only, including the most up-to-date rotation and the one I use myself. This is also why I prefer forum content over alternate methods such as Reddit or Youtube because new information can be very quickly provided/edited in, and you are not reliant on "upvotes" or likes, if someone has something new to say it gets added at the end of the thread and bumps it to the top. I have no Youtube videos, so I'm not sure to what you are referring to, but sticking to the advice contained within this thread should provide everything you require. Any new information will find its way into the discussion or main post very quickly.

Which reminds me that I should edit the accuracy section, I think we have enough information from the last month to be pretty confident about the back/flank/front accuracy differences.

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Appreciate the feedback sir!

Any suggestion as to having fracture at all? The other cross abilities are useful. What cross class skill is worth replacing fracture if need be?

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Originally Posted by Dervy

What skill did you miss with and where you standing near the front, flank, or rear of Twintania? Or did you miss on the snakes?

And gratz Krym ^_^

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Def snakes, It was a four hour session so the combat log didn't go far enough to see what skill missed. It could be auto attack also. Sorry I can't be as detailed as everyone else's fancy reports. I filtered log to only show me missed skills and it didn't go back far enough.

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

Any suggestion as to having fracture at all? The other cross abilities are useful. What cross class skill is worth replacing fracture if need be?

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I have Foresight, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, Second Wind and Internal Release.

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

Any suggestion as to having fracture at all? The other cross abilities are useful. What cross class skill is worth replacing fracture if need be?

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You can have Fracture if you want, but it is better to try to get the extra Full Thrust combo instead of using Fracture in your rotation. As long as you have Mercy Stroke and Internal Release you've maximized your damage cross-class abilities, so everything else is personal choice. Second Wind is always good, the 5% healing boost from Mantra is nice on big AE fights like Titan Ex, Bloodbath is nice for persistent AE where you want to be more self sufficient and relieve a little of the healing pressure (like Ifrit Ex nail phase and T4 knights/soldiers), Keen Flurry is great in some situations (e.g. again the AE from Knights/Soldiers on T4), I even use Skull Sunder sometimes if I want to hold aggro on something (e.g. the 3rd rook in T4 or an add on Titan Ex).

Think of your cross-class abilities as a toolbox. You have 3 slots for tools, all of which can accomplish something different but potentially useful in the right situation. Once you figure out what you want, you can choose the correct tools to help you get it done.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I have Foresight, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, Second Wind and Internal Release.

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Dang. I was leaning that way as well

Humm, I have Mantra instead of Foresight.

Mostly so I can mock the other DRG I group with and be elitist all over his comparatively lazy-I-don't-wanna-level-Monk-ass.

I use Foresight/Bloodbath/Second Wind for tanking the Knight in T4 phase 6 while my monk friend LBs it. I can also easily tank a Titan EX gaoler (at least 1, I haven't tried 2) using those, and come out with pretty much 100% HP.

I'm also in the haven't-leveled-monk club, which is a shame, coz I love the job; but I think I'd wanna keep Foresight anyway. If I can keep my own dumbass alive, at least the healers won't have to pay attention to me for, you know, like 6 seconds.

Anyone knows if the flank/rear acc numbers apply to bards as well?

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

Any suggestion as to having fracture at all? The other cross abilities are useful. What cross class skill is worth replacing fracture if need be?

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fracture are only useful when ur target is rotating chaotically (since ur Impulse drive is definitely wasted and landing a true thrust might disrupt ur heavy thrust/phlebotomize or ur flank rotation debuff duration)

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Originally Posted by VaShawn

Hey ayvar, which is most up to date and more damaging. The YouTube video showing rotations or your initial post here? I wanna use that "second" rotation you displayed in YouTube using BFB right after HT. Or can I stick with the final form you have in the forum which has IR after HT instead.

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Which video are you talking about? Cause if it were some British guy talking, that was myself and not Ayvar. I can give you an explanation as to why I use HT -> BFB -> ID -> IR, rather than what's posted in this thread, HT -> IR -> ID -> BFB.

It's so the IR hangs on after the last Full Thrust so I can end it with a potential DFD or an SP critical hit. After full thrust, you still will have a HT + BFB + IR buff this way, and you could potentially crit for 900+ with DFD. I'd take an extra 900 damage thank you very much :P. That's just me putting my twist onto how to manage the cool downs/buffs. The rotation posted here is just as effective as mine, with no difference in damage what so ever up until the Full Thrust. And yes, if it's a 2.2 guide you were watching, it's up to date ^_^

As long as you're using the H IDC P TTT Rotation, and weaving your skills in between your abilities, you'll be maximising the DPS of your dragoon.

Also, only ever use fracture in fights like Titan, if you think it's needed. Chuck it out, and replace it with Mercy Stroke.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

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Dervy? Wait a sec.. Your video helped me learn the Garuda EX fight as DRG!! Thank you! :D

@VaShawn - yea you will find that most of us use a slightly a different rotation for the off GCD abilities. I use mine in a certain order that I've gotten used to due to playing on controller. Regarding B4B and IR specifically, I just try to maximize uptime, so IR is ticks in full while under B4B, and I delay using until after Impulse Drive so both IR and B4B tick in full under Disembowel.

What accuracy are you guys testing right now? I can record my turn 5 to see

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Dervy? Wait a sec.. Your video helped me learn the Garuda EX fight as DRG!! Thank you! :D

@VaShawn - yea you will find that most of us use a slightly a different rotation for the off GCD abilities. I use mine in a certain order that I've gotten used to due to playing on controller. Regarding B4B and IR specifically, I just try to maximize uptime, so IR is ticks in full while under B4B, and I delay using until after Impulse Drive so both IR and B4B tick in full under Disembowel.

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Yah, Ima add an "extras tip" for Garuda EX later. There's a much better method, but it involves communication between yourself and the tanks.

Sadly, my gaming rig is blown up so I can't do anything at all for a while. RIP in pieces. Also, that is how I used to run my Dragoon. I used to stack BFB + IR together right under Disembowl (first rotation I posted in that video VaShawn was talking about). I use both depending on the situation.

Example, if we're doing titan EX, and run in for the HT, and he turns around and landslides, his rear is near the tank, so I'd halt using any buffs and get the ID going off, then stack the buffs. This way, I'm not wasting any DPS, or time on the HT, or reapplying the HT. Don't wanna be #2 on DPS bro, lol :P

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

Anyone knows if the flank/rear acc numbers apply to bards as well?

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Not a clue. If you want to check quickly, go to the Lv. 50 Dummies up in the North Western town in Coerthas (forgot the name) and run 341 accuracy. Go to the flank of the dummies and start attacking. (The rear of the dummies is facing the wall). If you do not miss after around 300 hits, go to the front. If you miss once after 300 hits, it's safe to say front/flank/rear accuracy affects Bards, which could also affect SMN and BLMs.

Currently, works for Dragoons, Warriors and Monks.

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

Anyone knows if the flank/rear acc numbers apply to bards as well?

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From some limited testing, yes, it does. A BRD with 341 ACC missed a small % to the front, and none from behind, as per the melee tests.

Thanks for the advice EMX, PArcher and whiskey =D I'll see if anything changes in the next runs. In the meantime I'm practising on dummies to get a feel of the rotation. GCD are fine, now I need to weave oGCD regularly. I still tunnel view a little and forget about them to keep track of the rotation.

At least the rotation itself seems now less complicated than what I had thought when I first saw this thread: minor skill - combo - minor skill - combo, where minor skill is either Phlebotomize or Heavy thrust (which one of them depends on which one is down/about to go down and change), and combo is either IDC (Chaos thrust is not up or about to go down) or TTT (Chaos thrust). The main difference from what I did before is that I often used Heavy thrust and Phlebotomize together and I clipped accidentally either of them and Chaos thrust. This rotation should minimize the chances of this happening, I guess.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Per point, DTR destroys CRT. Keep in mind that every point of DTR takes up more gear budget than CRT however. For example, on a particular tier of item, the game may provide 11 DTR or 16 CRT. So you get more CRT for the same "slot" on an item compared to DTR.

This narrows the gap between DTR and CRT.

For example, each point is DTR is worth roughly ".323" to CRT's ".184". However, on a particular item you would get 11*.323 = 3.553 value from DTR versus 16*.184 = 2.944 value frmo CRT.

DTR is still better, since 3.553 > 2.944, but it's not by a gigantic amount.


That aside, you get the biggest crits with more DTR because then you have the highest base damage ^_^.

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Hey thanks so much for the insight. Appreciate it.

I rolled blm instead for for t4-5 but didn't have any misses on t1 and 2 at 466 acc

Sorry for being a tad ignorant, how is the testing going for the directional accuracy requirements, and do they seem to apply to everything? Such as, it seemed (Prior to the directional accuracy revelations) that CT and Ex primals have lower accuracy requirements where as Coil turns had higher, is this still the case? And what are the current accuracy requirements or are they not fully worked out yet? I fished through the past 20 pages and wasn't really finding the answers to my questions.

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Originally Posted by Ihm

Sorry for being a tad ignorant, how is the testing going for the directional accuracy requirements, and do they seem to apply to everything? Such as, it seemed (Prior to the directional accuracy revelations) that CT and Ex primals have lower accuracy requirements where as Coil turns had higher, is this still the case? And what are the current accuracy requirements or are they not fully worked out yet? I fished through the past 20 pages and wasn't really finding the answers to my questions.

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I think it's more or less confirmed and they're grabbing numbers

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Originally Posted by Ihm

Sorry for being a tad ignorant, how is the testing going for the directional accuracy requirements, and do they seem to apply to everything? Such as, it seemed (Prior to the directional accuracy revelations) that CT and Ex primals have lower accuracy requirements where as Coil turns had higher, is this still the case? And what are the current accuracy requirements or are they not fully worked out yet? I fished through the past 20 pages and wasn't really finding the answers to my questions.

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Yes CT and Primals have much lower ACC requirments. Not sure if with 0 ACC on your equipment you would be able to get a miss on those places. Maybe if you were attacking from the front, but then you should ask yourself what you're doing at that place. Before the boss reminds you that he does have a cleave for that kind of circumstances ;)

Titan has a variety of spellcast animations where he is facing the group. In addition, gaols and egis are often attacked from the front.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I took about 465 into Turns 1-4 for about a month, no misses.

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I missed 1 doomspike hit on a clockwork bug the other day on T4 with 465 acc.

I have no proof but from experience it seems aoe moves like Doom Spike / Ring of Thorns / Dragonfire Dive have generally higher acc requirements. Though i've never seen dragonfire dive miss, maybe because its magical damage it follows a diff acc req.?

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

I missed 1 doomspike hit on a clockwork bug the other day on T4 with 465 acc.

I have no proof but from experience it seems aoe moves like Doom Spike / Ring of Thorns / Dragonfire Dive have generally higher acc requirements. Though i've never seen dragonfire dive miss, maybe because its magical damage it follows a diff acc req.?

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During phase 1 of turn 4 last week, my ring of thorns missed a spider twice, but I was in the middle with all the spiders facing me so idk about that

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

I missed 1 doomspike hit on a clockwork bug the other day on T4 with 465 acc.

I have no proof but from experience it seems aoe moves like Doom Spike / Ring of Thorns / Dragonfire Dive have generally higher acc requirements. Though i've never seen dragonfire dive miss, maybe because its magical damage it follows a diff acc req.?

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A spider could of been facing you, hence the miss