Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's not that you're not allowed to talk about it, it that we've already talked about it for months. We've discussed it so much that there's no new discussion to be had.

Do you actually want to continue to repeat the same exact conversation for several more months? Without further canon to change the shape of the conversation, there's nothing else we can do with the topic.

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You make it sound like these conversations happen intentionally. They're usually the result of somebody making some off-hand remark about Venat being a monster or the Ancients being irredeemable, which then turns into an angry diagetic disagreement, which then it turn becomes an argument about writing quality once the awkwardness and ambiguity of the scenario becomes the focal point.

A lot of people had an extreme response to Endwalker, positive or negative. When you're invested in something, it's hard to back down when you see someone saying something that seems disrespectful of your feelings. And that's worsened by the fact that this space serves as the "face" of the community invested in this part of the game. Even though that developers have probably long since absorbed any feedback to Endwalker and decided what they're going to do with the story going forward, there's a certain territorialism where people on both sides are probably reluctant to cede the space and allow an opinion they don't approve of to become the status quo.

This sort of instinct is actually pretty good sense when it comes to a serious topic like politics, since people are inclined to go along with what seems like the dominant opinion. For a video game plot... Well, maybe not so much...

Iscah's right though, there's no further point in intentionally going into the discussion anymore. Accidentally is going to happen, it's going to happen a lot, as we've seen over the months since EW launched. But let's TRY to avoid intentionally going into the topic until we have more things to do with it. In other words, wait to see if the Tribe quests have a few nudges towards it, or if Hildebrand suddenly has hidden info on it (remember, it went heavily into Sil'dah lore back in ARR and he's currently with the Loporrits). Worst case, we're stuck waiting for the next Alliance Raid for more info...the curse of us being loremongers who hunger for more lore and information in a MMO.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

You make it sound like these conversations happen intentionally. They're usually the result of somebody making some off-hand remark about Venat being a monster or the Ancients being irredeemable, which then turns into an angry diagetic disagreement, which then it turn becomes an argument about writing quality once the awkwardness and ambiguity of the scenario becomes the focal point.

A lot of people had an extreme response to Endwalker, positive or negative. When you're invested in something, it's hard to back down when you see someone saying something that seems disrespectful of your feelings. And that's worsened by the fact that this space serves as the "face" of the community invested in this part of the game. Even though that developers have probably long since absorbed any feedback to Endwalker and decided what they're going to do with the story going forward, there's a certain territorialism where people on both sides are probably reluctant to cede the space and allow an opinion they don't approve of to become the status quo.

This sort of instinct is actually pretty good sense when it comes to a serious topic like politics, since people are inclined to go along with what seems like the dominant opinion. For a video game plot... Well, maybe not so much...

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I don't think the vast majority try to make these conversations happen intentionally. But there are some who seem to only to live for stirring the pot. Even when it's not obvious bait or the bait isn't aimed at you or you don't think it's aimed at you but you end up spotting the bait. Spend enough time and you can easily notice when someone is trying to goad another into starting up said conversations. Even in topics that don't fall anywhere close to said conversations. It's why I and some others have made quips about the possibility of making a thread about their extreme dislike about a type of boot in the game and have it not only get derailed but end up about said topics.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I don't think the vast majority try to make these conversations happen intentionally. But there are some who seem to only to live for stirring the pot. Even when it's not obvious bait or the bait isn't aimed at you or you don't think it's aimed at you but you end up spotting the bait. Spend enough time and you can easily notice when someone is trying to goad another into starting up said conversations. Even in topics that don't fall anywhere close to said conversations. It's why I and some others have made quips about the possibility of making a thread about their extreme dislike about a type of boot in the game and have it not only get derailed but end up about said topics.

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Honestly? I think a lot of what people assume is "baiting" online actually, well, isn't.

When you get down to it, people just like to complain about the things that bother them without having to worry about holding back. Heck, a lot of people cultivate communities specifically for that purpose; that's basically what an "echo chamber" is. For example, I doubt anyone in the big EW complaint thread over in General Discussion is posting there to try and provoke a response - they don't want other people there at all, and get mad when people who like the story wander in. They just want to inhabit a space where the core premise, that Endwalker sucks, is understood to be the status quo and all other conversation can be built on that point of view.

Likewise, I don't think people who casually bring up how Venat or the Ancients are monsters or how Endwalker's writing is bad in threads where that's not even really relevant are doing so to try to peeve anyone off, at least not directly. Rather, they're doing it because it's something they feel strongly enough about that it's fundamentally altered how they see and want to talk about the game's writing.

Online or off, some people just aren't willing to bite their tongue and restrain their feelings to avoid causing a fuss. That's doubly true in a space for a very trivial topic like this one that actively encourages voicing whatever weird opinion you have.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I don't think the vast majority try to make these conversations happen intentionally. But there are some who seem to only to live for stirring the pot. Even when it's not obvious bait or the bait isn't aimed at you or you don't think it's aimed at you but you end up spotting the bait. Spend enough time and you can easily notice when someone is trying to goad another into starting up said conversations. Even in topics that don't fall anywhere close to said conversations. It's why I and some others have made quips about the possibility of making a thread about their extreme dislike about a type of boot in the game and have it not only get derailed but end up about said topics.

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Now that you mention it...it's been awfully quiet around here recently. It's a nice change of pace mind you, but...you know, it feels like the mods did some work behind the scenes or something.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Honestly? I think a lot of what people assume is "baiting" online actually, well, isn't.

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There HAVE been a few I could mention by name who actively seem to be purposefully stirring the pot. I could bring up several posts in this thread alone showing it (assuming they haven't been deleted). But that's not really helpful with discussion, and will only start a flame war.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Now that you mention it...it's been awfully quiet around here recently. It's a nice change of pace mind you, but...you know, it feels like the mods did some work behind the scenes or something.


There HAVE been a few I could mention by name who actively seem to be purposefully stirring the pot. I could bring up several posts in this thread alone showing it (assuming they haven't been deleted). But that's not really helpful with discussion, and will only start a flame war.

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I think one of them had their sub run out. As they stated it a few times as their reason as to why they put in an edit of their posts a few times. It's also where a few others like to take jabs at others besides the addition to a thread's tags as unless someone makes a comment about tags or reason for a post's edit most I think don't even see those parts of a post or a thread. Or if they do see it none of it registers enough to stick into someone's memory.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Honestly? I think a lot of what people assume is "baiting" online actually, well, isn't.

When you get down to it, people just like to complain about the things that bother them without having to worry about holding back. Heck, a lot of people cultivate communities specifically for that purpose; that's basically what an "echo chamber" is. For example, I doubt anyone in the big EW complaint thread over in General Discussion is posting there to try and provoke a response - they don't want other people there at all, and get mad when people who like the story wander in. They just want to inhabit a space where the core premise, that Endwalker sucks, is understood to be the status quo and all other conversation can be built on that point of view.

Likewise, I don't think people who casually bring up how Venat or the Ancients are monsters or how Endwalker's writing is bad in threads where that's not even really relevant are doing so to try to peeve anyone off, at least not directly. Rather, they're doing it because it's something they feel strongly enough about that it's fundamentally altered how they see and want to talk about the game's writing.

Online or off, some people just aren't willing to bite their tongue and restrain their feelings to avoid causing a fuss. That's doubly true in a space for a very trivial topic like this one that actively encourages voicing whatever weird opinion you have.

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If you think I'm talking about the threads that are only started to stir the pot as bait and then get labeled by many as a troll thread I'm not. I'm talking about when someone starts a reply about the topic only to make a remark which has something like unlike_____ posters either halfway through their reply who aren't trying to hide their dislike or be passive aggressiveness towards others.or put it near the end. Or those who will straight up mention another person who for example might have constantly made a grammatical error or two that they've gotten a rise out of in the past.

And sure it would feel nice to not hold back about something or even someone, but doing so on most forums will quickly get you banned. Or ignored by the community. Thus why there is so much passive aggressiveness. The veild jabs at other users. Why there are debates on if someone is posting in good faith. Heck it's alright to state your displeasurement with something. Despite what some would like others to think. Or have you believe.

If I don't make much sense it's partly due to being distracted and having to pause what I was writing to go do something else.

Poor Meteion, i didn't realize that she lost a lot of her sisters prior to the Elpis zone in Endwalker.
Hermes really did the poor girls dirty, this side story really showed how far he was willing to go for his objectives.

And how he was capable of using the lives of creations for it. He was actively hurting himself and then meteion some more by doing so.

I think it's interesting to see how Dynamis behave outside of Etheirys and Ultima Thule.
A planet that can think, feel and manipulate Dynamis is something really spectacular to think about.

So there's really planets who have will of their own.
I wonder if that planet have or had people living on it too.

The planet where Dynamis rage as a tempest is intriguing too.
The text say that there's a pool of aether similar to the aetherial sea that was full of memories who created said dynamis tempest.

So another planet can have a Lifestream, i wonder if it's the case for all planets.
It's interesting that this Lifestream is the source of the raging Dynamis surrounding that planet.

Did that planet originally have inhabitants who all died, and whose memories create the dynamis tempest ?
Or did this sea of aether just manifested memories which created dynamis in turn ?

I think these concepts of living planet and planet whose Lifestream can affect the environment through Dynamis could be observed on Etheirys in some ways in the future.

It really makes me wonder if this concept of Dynamis and Entelechies will dissapear from the plot, or be use in a new way in the future.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

If you think I'm talking about the threads that are only started to stir the pot as bait and then get labeled by many as a troll thread I'm not. I'm talking about when someone starts a reply about the topic only to make a remark which has something like unlike_____ posters either halfway through their reply who aren't trying to hide their dislike or be passive aggressiveness towards others.or put it near the end. Or those who will straight up mention another person who for example might have constantly made a grammatical error or two that they've gotten a rise out of in the past.

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That's fair. There are some people who are obviously looking for a fight. I just think that a lot of the time, this stuff doesn't really happen on purpose, but just because a lot of people here are probably irrevocably Endwalkerbrained about the game's lore at this point.

Like, another thing I'd say in response to Iscah's point is that while I agree in principle, the reality is that the Sundering is such a foundational event of the setting, it's hard not to talk about it, even if you recognize that the conversation ultimately will hit a dead end because of the ambiguity in the writing. Like, on top of being the earliest historical event and directly connected to a lot of the important lore stuff we're doing with the Twelve and 13th and so on, it's literally responsible for most of what we'd consider the human condition in-setting. You can't even talk about poverty in Ul'Dah without the Sundering being vaguely relevant. Unlike other controversial parts of the writing like the Yotsuyu arc, it's not something people can forget about just by the narrative shifting focus. It's 'in the bone', to put it kinda pretentiously.

That's why I really want the writers to actually clean up the the scenario, even if they end up changing it in a way I don't like. Right now it's a bit of a poison. I don't think it will stop being the center of gravity in discussions about the game's lore until something changes.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

That's fair. There are some people who are obviously looking for a fight. I just think that a lot of the time, this stuff doesn't really happen on purpose, but just because a lot of people here are probably irrevocably Endwalkerbrained about the game's lore at this point.

Like, another thing I'd say in response to Iscah's point is that while I agree in principle, the reality is that the Sundering is such a foundational event of the setting, it's hard not to talk about it, even if you recognize that the conversation ultimately will hit a dead end because of the ambiguity in the writing. Like, on top of being the earliest historical event and directly connected to a lot of the important lore stuff we're doing with the Twelve and 13th and so on, it's literally responsible for most of what we'd consider the human condition in-setting. You can't even talk about poverty in Ul'Dah without the Sundering being vaguely relevant. Unlike other controversial parts of the writing like the Yotsuyu arc, it's not something people can forget about just by the narrative shifting focus. It's 'in the bone', to put it kinda pretentiously.

That's why I really want the writers to actually clean up the the scenario, even if they end up changing it in a way I don't like. Right now it's a bit of a poison. I don't think it will stop being the center of gravity in discussions about the game's lore until something changes.

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You said it yourself it's vaguely related. So vague in fact that it would be rather pointless to bring up in any real conversation about poverty in Ul'Dah. The people that would do that, probably never really wanted to talk about poverty in Ul'Dah in the first place. Hopefully the 12 have nothing to do with the ancients and the 13th is only related in the fact that they caused the world to be flooded with darkness. What the voidsent have been doing since that time also, hopefully has nothing to do with the acsians.

The sundering allowed for much of the lore to happen but that does not mean we need to bring up the sundering whenever we talk about any other subject in the lore.