Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

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" you mean this? "

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Yeah that guy cracked me up too. Perfect example of someone who doesn't browse past the first page. I don't expect people to go ten or twenty pages deep, but to check out the first five isn't a huge deal. To say nothing of using the (actually pretty robust) forum search function they have.

I just want the move back man, it was one of my top favorite moves for SAM purely for the animation alone. I would literally sit there and watch the animation play out before hitting the next button just so I could enjoy it. Always made me feel badass when I did it, I know what it did and what it’s purpose was but I really loved it just for the animation. Just make Shoha 1 turn into Shoha 2 or another move do the same thing to help with bloat. And honestly I play on ps5 and didn’t have any issues with button bloat at all. Just bring back Kaiten bro, Yoshi pls man!

Bumping the thread to remind SE that we still want Kaiten back.

Kaiten is too restrictive to design around. So in preparation of patch 7.0, we've decided to remove Kaiten in 6.1 in order for us to introduce a new ability 16 months later. Please look forward to it

Y'know, it really opened my eyes to just how fragile the developers' job design has become overall. They keep removing blocks from the job Jenga tower until the thing just collapses, but instead of doing anything else, they just wash their hands of it and move on to something else while ignoring the people they've left with the mess. Used to think, "well surely it'll get better" or "well it could be worse", but that was just deluding myself. "Worse" was making its slow insidious march the entire time.

Another bump.
The job feels so gutted and dumbed down with the removal of Kaiten the Kenki gauge has absolutely no point of existing anymore.

Please revert the changes, they were not thought through and the consequences are too big to leave it like that.

I hop on SAM, do a Midare, think "this felt better with Kaiten" and then switch to another job

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I hop on SAM, do a Midare, think "this felt better with Kaiten" and then switch to another job

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Hahaha pretty well summed up !

I had effectively forgotten how much better SAM was before they removed Kaiten and had been having a good-enough time with the sad new version, but then I thoughtlessly played Monk in PVP (who basically has Kaiten) and it rekindled my disappointment. Bump. Bring back Kaiten.

If it's a design obstacle, then reword it as necessary, but having kenki consumption be independent of sen status is mindless, not to mention the flattened damage profile.

As someone who plays SAM casually, I'm of two minds on the change.

On the one hand, playing SAM in synched content felt awful while Kaiten was around, particularly around level 60 -- you had a very strict Kenki economy where a full combo gave you just enough for one Kaiten, so it made it difficult to have enough to Kaiten both your DoT applications and Midare in quick succession, in addition to being able to use your gap-closer, unless you were in a fight that could reliably trigger Third Eye and accommodated sneaking in Enpi and Meditation as net damage bonuses. It would be difficult to resolve this without impacting the Kenki economy at later levels, especially when the job has multiple other spenders.
Logically, I also agree that it creates unnecessary button bloat to have an oGCD that exists only to precede Iaijutsu -- at that point it makes sense to just combine the two into one button, something I myself have suggested many times for other jobs, not just for bloat but also double-weaving windows. The argument that "knowing when to Kaiten was a mark of skill" could also be flipped on its head, that the rotation was designed such that only particular skills would warrant Kaiten, and that the illusion of being able to use it anywhere else made it a trap set for newer players. So long as it competed with filler spenders like Shinten and Kyuten, there was also the threat of fringe rotations cropping up that just dropped other spenders.

Of course, using low-level content as a justification for such a change is a poor excuse given how little content it benefits versus how much current content is also affected by the change (especially now that we can just spend Shinten as we get it when soloing, with the only limiter being pooling for 2-min buff windows), and "think of the new players" arguments are a slippery slope to making a no-skill game.

It seems popular enough of an ability looking at this thread (though I admit I don't know how many players were begging for Kaiten to go before 6.1, inevitably there were at least some), though I can agree with dev concerns about button bloat. Even though there are other buttons that could be combined (like Shinten and Kyuten, or the Shoha skills), the slots they would open would just be filled by other high level skills in 7.0, which just means they're more likely to be on the lookout for further skills to trim rather than to bring back...