When are we supposed to stop fighting?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression that Elidibus was no longer a part of Zodiark at that point (which was the Tragedy of Elidibus). I'm pretty sure every Primal I've encountered has desired more Aether than they currently possess, so that contract would really look good about now.

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Zodiark doesn't seem to have much, if any, will of His own. Without a 'heart' He seems content to just chill out in the primal equivalent of sleep mode. Also, if I recall correctly, the sacrifice plan was being formulated while Elidibus was still in Zodiark, the arguments about going ahead with it are what caused him to withdraw himself from Zodiark.

Now I am kind of suspicious that Elidibus reappearance suddenly quells the majority of the dissent, but I don't really doubt that Zodiark would have held up His end of the bargain to the best of His ability. I would probably be more suspicous that it's just a ploy for more aether if Zodiark was the only Ancient primal, but Hydaelyn never seems particularly aether hungry either, and they're almost certainly more similar to each other than they are to modern primals.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Except #1 the Unsundered didn't turn, and #2 if the third sacrifice had been allowed to go through [which I still believe was moral to do because if it comes down to us against another group of lives, and the allowing of that other group to live dooms those I love, I am saving those I love, thank you very much]

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That’s not really a moral defense though. That’s simply a statement of preferences, that you value life inherently more because you have emotional attachment to it. It’s not necessarily terroble to feel that way nor is it all uncommon, but the question over what is right or moral to do in the face of that remains unanswered.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Zodiark would have kept them safe for at *least* the 12 thousand years that He did, so they would have, with the correct information in hand had Venat told them what was up had plenty of time to solve the Meteion problem. To save one's own loved ones, even at the cost of other's lives, is a perfectly moral and understandable thing to do.

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To save one’s loved ones is indeed noble. To sacrifice innocents to bring them back not so much. My feelings can be summed up with a quote.

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To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn’t wisdom, it is weakness.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I saw this image and it reminded me of this thread. :P

https://i.imgur.com/gISmI1a.jpg

Since it bears repeating, Venat is never once chastised by anyone for what she did. She has a couple of lines of dialog where she expresses some amount of self-awareness, but that's it.

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A good thing I think, she recognized the inherent cruelty in her plan but did her best to give those who suffered the best chance to survive. Chastising a dying woman after she helped save all life would be pretty off the mark for me personally.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As for the Ancients, the issue is that their entire civilization is being judged on the basis of a slice of life in one facility dedicated to creation magicks and the twisted interpretation of one man who decided if everything can't live then nothing should live. It's brought up that neither the sundered nor our own cultures are any better, in many ways arguably worse, so if that's the metric by which we determine who gets to survive or not then we all fail. You can not like what they did, sure, I don't like a lot of what current humanity does, but that's a far cry from saying they deserved to be wiped out because of it.

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At no point have I said I’d agree with Hermes or Meteion in their conclusions on the Ancients and life itself. I’m simply pointing out that “no paradise is without its shadows” is an accurate statement when applied to the Ancients and that Hermes struggle with what was going on in Elpis is at the very least understandable. Whether it be Elpis or Pandaemonium or any other number of different things Amaurot was not a perfect paradise that would have inherently avoided the failings and trappings of other, far greater societies. That’s the bottom line I think.

Rather than continue picking over the fine points of why people experience discomfort and moral dissonance with the Venat/Ancient narrative for another 2 months, I've decided it'd be easier to just allow myself to be radicalized against the themes of the story. It was actually fine for the Amaurotines to sacrifice millions of catgirls to save their people. Life invariably exploits life, and only betraying your own species is morally debased. The Ancients had no responsibility to the wider universe or any other form of life. Emet-Selch did nothing wrong.

This is not a serious post. Don't quote me.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

This is not a serious post. Don't quote me.

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=P just cause you said not too

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Rather than continue picking over the fine points of why people experience discomfort and moral dissonance with the Venat/Ancient narrative for another 2 months, I've decided it'd be easier to just allow myself to be radicalized against the themes of the story. It was actually fine for the Amaurotines to sacrifice millions of catgirls to save their people. Life invariably exploits life, and only betraying your own species is morally debased. The Ancients had no responsibility to the wider universe or any other form of life. Emet-Selch did nothing wrong.

This is not a serious post. Don't quote me.

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https://i.gifer.com/58wK.gif

You can stop your MSQ when it was peaceful and stay that way forever :)

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Zodiark doesn't seem to have much, if any, will of His own. Without a 'heart' He seems content to just chill out in the primal equivalent of sleep mode. Also, if I recall correctly, the sacrifice plan was being formulated while Elidibus was still in Zodiark, the arguments about going ahead with it are what caused him to withdraw himself from Zodiark.

Now I am kind of suspicious that Elidibus reappearance suddenly quells the majority of the dissent, but I don't really doubt that Zodiark would have held up His end of the bargain to the best of His ability. I would probably be more suspicous that it's just a ploy for more aether if Zodiark was the only Ancient primal, but Hydaelyn never seems particularly aether hungry either, and they're almost certainly more similar to each other than they are to modern primals.

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It wasn't so much that Zodiark was content to sit in primal sleep mode as it was he had no choice in the matter. Sundered and bound as he was, there was simply no way he could act. The separation of Elidibus did to some extent deprive him of his own will, but he did retain his instincts -- and those instincts told him to be free. He was also still beholden to the urgings of the Ancient souls within, whose motivations remained, above all else, the preservation and restoration of Etheirys and her people.

As for aether; Zodiark contained the souls and combined aether of innumerable Ancients. It seems rather likely he might not even have been capable of running out in the first place. Hydaelyn was created using a much smaller number of sacrifices, and we've seen several times over the course of the game the decline in her abilities as her aether reserves dwindled. It was this depleted state that ultimately forced her to claim Minfilia, just as it forced her to utilize Krile a handful of times. We learn during the battle with her that she kept back just enough aether to be able to fight us with her full power exactly one time. It's not always immediately evident, but there are times (again, Minfilia and her trip to the First being the prime example) where Hydaelyn did take steps to acquire more aether.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

I would 100% agree with this IF the cutscene with Venat did not make it very clear that she Sundered the world because the Ancients wanted to undo the damage done and bring back their friends stuck inside Zodiark. To go back to the way things were. Venat judged that the wrong answer and enforced her will on all existence.

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And she was right to, again going back to mankind being as they were wouldn't deal with Meteion, or The Final Days, something the Acsians didn't know was caused by Dynamis or Meteion, Venat did nothing wrong.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

And she was right to, again going back to mankind being as they were wouldn't deal with Meteion, or The Final Days, something the Acsians didn't know was caused by Dynamis or Meteion, Venat did nothing wrong.

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Except lie and keep secrets from us and her people and genociding an entire planet without consent. Just your typical tuesday.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

And she was right to, again going back to mankind being as they were wouldn't deal with Meteion, or The Final Days, something the Acsians didn't know was caused by Dynamis or Meteion, Venat did nothing wrong.

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Alright. Then can I PLEASE WIPE OUT THE BEASTMEN!? They are constantly summoning primals which are a threat to our existence. Let's pull a Venat and do some genocide!