Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I rarely see "tank???" and I don't think I have ever seen "dps???"

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The "Tank???????????" comes often enough, but you are not allowed to call out dps because...well you know...you don't pay their sub.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

The "Tank???????????" comes often enough, but you are not allowed to call out dps because...well you know...you don't pay their sub.

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Well it's likely due to how without a parser it's often still easy to see if a tank or healer messed up given it usually quickly leads to one or the other dying or nearly dying, but a dps messing up their rotation doesn't usually quickly result in death. One mistimed heal or tank cd can cause a wipe. One mistimed offensive ability rarely does.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

If you are playing a healer and anything goes wrong, every single person is going to most likely complain about your healing role. But you are still assuming that the person complaining is right. If it happens however, very often, it is likely you are doing something wrong as a healer; the causes, I don't know, it could be because they are new, have low expectations, play the game occasionally or even have some sort of physical/mental handicap, it could be a lot of things. The "they refuse to learn" line is the easiest one to assume because it gives you automatic permission to go wild on whoever you think is doing something wrong.

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Three observations:

1) I've been playing since 2.2 and I can count the number of times a bad player was called out in pf/df on the fingers of one hand;

2) Never have I witnessed the situation you described, namely the healer being blamed for anything that went wrong;

3) The funniest thing is that even assuming that "toxic players" are a majority in df and pugs and everyone starts shouting at healers whenever something goes wrong...do you know what players are actually able to tell who did his job and who didn't? Yeah, veteran raiders. People that unfairly blame an "innocent" or competent player are usually unskilled players since good players can easily understand what's going on and where the fault lies.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

People wouldn't keep arguing semantics over and over with you if you stopped changing the story and crutch of your argument every time someone debunks it and you fumble to come up with another excuse that still treads water.

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It was only a very specific poster that did that, not people in general. There's nothing to debunk because there's no way you could ever justify calling someone bad in the context of an online game. From friendly advice to accurate assessments, you can disguise bad mouthing behind as many terms as you want. No real company is ever going to acknowledge your cause.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

It was only a very specific poster that did that, not people. There's nothing to debunk because there's no way you could ever justify calling someone bad in the context of an online game. From friendly advice to accurate assessments, you can disguise bad mouthing behind as many terms as you want. No real company is ever going to acknowledge your cause.

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bad adjective
\ˈbad
\
worse\ˈwərs
\; worst\ˈwərst
\
Definition of bad

(Entry 1 of 3)

1a : failing to reach an acceptable standard : poor a bad repair job

Example: This healer stands still using no abilities for 70% of the dungeon and only uses one spell (Cure 2) They are bad at healing.

Explain how that is an incorrect assessment or somehow harassment if I give advice on how to play better. Example: Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother.

In this instance an acceptable standard is attempting to be doing something throughout the dungeon run. I'm not asking for perfection, just a semblance of effort. I would then argue that this does justify me quantifying someone as being bad at something.

Also, stating someone is bad at something is not an insult. It is an assessment of their skill at a given task. It is a neutral statement.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well it's likely due to how without a parser it's often still easy to see if a tank or healer messed up given it usually quickly leads to one or the other dying or nearly dying, but a dps messing up their rotation doesn't usually quickly result in death. One mistimed heal or tank cd can cause a wipe. One mistimed offensive ability rarely does.

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To be honest for most dps that you would actually want to call out, you don't need a parser because its most of the time very obvious what they are doing or not doing. I usualy don't call out people even if i could because its just wasted time since 90% of them don't give a sh.. anyway.

I've got called out once in a dungeon by a tank who died i just answered: "If i have to use benediction and tetra directly after that and you still die in an instant, you should maybe start using cd's or i'll start to use cure 1 only." He never complained again after that.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

It's not too much of a problem when it is anecdotical. It starts being a problem when it goes from anecdotical to frequent.




While there is a definition of harassment, what qualifies as harassment or not can often be vague or ambiguous, so arguing over this makes little sense. "Heals??????" when as a tank you've just died is directly pointing the healer as the only responsible of such situation, all while drawing away any potential responsibility you may have had. Whether that's qualified as harassment or not in your very own personal book isn't very important; what is important however is that such comment will certainly not be welcomed by the other side (for more than obvious reasons).

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Ah - I see our fundamental misunderstanding here. You assume I (or others) would care about hurting an oversensitive person's feelings with a harmless comment when they make a mistake. I can't speak for everyone else but I don't feel bad when this happens personally, if someone is bothered by 'heals?' or any other completely harmless question I can't be bothered to cater to them.

Put on your big girl robe and move into the world of adulthood.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

That aside: So we can agree that telling a healer who let the tank (or anyone else for that matter) die, when the tank (or anyone else) did everything in their power to prevent that from happening "You need to heal me" or "Please heal me" isnt harassment? Because when I die to the autoattack after a tankbuster for which I had sentinel, schiltron and reprisal up, I'll do that.

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If that's the entire story, nobody should be offended. If they are offended, it's up to you and the other person whether you want to approach the matter tactful in order to reduce the potential tension that may have generated or not, a good joke can sometimes prevent a situation from going downhill. If they are still offended no matter what despite your positive attitude, at least you know you've done what was in your hands to prevent a negative atmosphere in the group.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

bad adjective
\ˈbad
\
worse\ˈwərs
\; worst\ˈwərst
\
Definition of bad

(Entry 1 of 3)

1a : failing to reach an acceptable standard : poor a bad repair job

Example: This healer stands still using no abilities for 70% of the dungeon and only uses one spell (Cure 2) They are bad at healing.

Explain how that is an incorrect assessment or somehow harassment if I give advice on how to play better. Example: Please cast something between heals, you have some dps abilities such as stone and aero that can help the run go smoother.

In this instance an acceptable standard is attempting to be doing something throughout the dungeon run. I'm not asking for perfection, just a semblance of effort. I would then argue that this does justify me quantifying someone as being bad at something.

Also, stating someone is bad at something is not an insult. It is an assessment of their skill at a given task. It is a neutral statement.

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Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Go ahead, call someone bad in a dungeon right after you wipe in a boss, and when you notice they don't take it very well, tell them you are helping them because you are giving them neutral assessment and thus helping them improve. I'm confident it'll work out.

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That doesn't answer their prompt for you.