Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Atos

Yeah well that's not what I'm seeing. I don't see a lot of "educating" going on, more like berating. Can't be bothered to count how many posts I've seen that mentioned kicking people out of the party for not following this arbitrary standard they're trying to impose.

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Then you're looking at it with the intent to see only the negativity. Can't help if that's how you feel or see it though.

This isn't a classroom. "Educating" doesn't mean people are going to pull out a whiteboard. Even if it was 100% berating, you can be educated and learn from that too... if you want to.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Unfortunately, since every single job in this game is very DPS focused, if you don't like to DPS, this game probably isn't for you. There also isn't room for alternative play styles for any job in this game, since the design is so straightforward and there's only one effective way to play each job. You can't really play a pure support BRD or pure healing healer and be an effective party member even if you wanted to. You can ask for changes in game design, but there's no point in asking changes for "play styles", when current design doesn't allow for any.

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Shrug, that's just false. This game allows for a wide variety of play.

From a design stand point, we have the director stating that healers should focus on healing and DPS if they want to, so it's clearly not required by design. It's a norm that the community placed, due to the low healing requirement of most content. As a healer, do I DPS? yes, all the time. I have about a 97% DPS 3% heal ratio in dungeons. Do I force this mentality on everyone? No. Let them enjoy the game as they want to. If they hate DPSing and want to heal, let them do it. It's only going to cost you 2 minutes of your time to let this other person enjoy their time. It seems like a small price to pay for me.

That said, you are in-part correct, that there is some straightforwardness in design. There are blatant issues of people countering this design, such as the infamous ice mage. However, the non-DPSing Healer isn't one of them.

I would say the biggest issue is the lack of non-DPS, non-Healer abilities that healers have. More CC/Support would be great. Alternative/Additionally, it would be great if more content was more demanding on healers. I really shouldn't be in cleric stance for 97% of an expert run.

The issue for me, again, is that some people are setting different standards for healers than any other jobs, and that's not fair, in my opinion. The same people are willing to accept "different play styles" only for healers, but not for any other job. If I can heal a dungeon just fine with using only 2 actions per minute, why shouldn't others be allowed to have same level of useful participation, if the group will finish their goal in any case?

My opinion is, that everyone in a party should do their best to be as useful to their team as possible. A dungeon or a primal fight or a raid is a team effort, after all. And I don't think healers should be allowed to refuse to be helpful (when they could! that's also an important part of it) just because they're not tanks or DDs.

How about we just get rid of the holy trinity and put healers in dps and rename them dps with healing ability?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Snip.

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Following your example, I should be allowed as a tank to completely ignore my job to dish out more deeps, and tell people to back off when they whine about the fact they have adds biting off their face because that's my playstyle. Except that I can't just ignore my main role, because that's literally what I'm there for. Conversely, healers shouldn't be allowed to ignore their main role in favor of 'MUH DEEPS' for the sake of trying to shave off 30 seconds to a minute off a run. It's not a case of 'Different Standards', it's literally stop hiding behind cleric stance and do your job.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

How about we just get rid of the holy trinity and put healers in dps and rename them dps with healing ability?

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Earlier someone in this thread suggested that if the "healer" name would be replaced as "support", this whole argument wouldn't even exist. I too feel that most of the "it's ok for healers to only heal" arguments are based on nothing but the fact that the jobs are classified as "healers" (that and speculation of what developers have intended, which also has no standing in how the game is actually played).

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Following your example, I should be allowed as a tank to completely ignore my job to dish out more deeps, and tell people to back off when they whine about the fact they have adds biting off their face because that's my playstyle.

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Please reread my posts more carefully. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...lies/smile.png I have said again and again, that absolutely no one is arguing that it should be ok for healers to ignore healing, just like no one is arguing that it's ok for tanks to ignore tanking. All pro healer DPS and pro tank DPS arguments are about first covering your primary role, and then, being useful in other ways instead of doing nothing or doing something useless.

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Originally Posted by Taika

And what's the issue with that? As a healer, when no one is in any danger (and you should know it as all fights are scripted), what else is there to do but DPS? It's a choice of 1) DPS, 2) do nothing at all, or 3) do something useless (overheal or spam Stoneskin over and over or something). There is only one correct choice here (unless you're in a very specific situation in which the best thing you can do for your group is to do nothing or do unnecessary overhealing, which can happen, but is rare).

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A couple of issues with that. First, people start deciding for you when you should be doing damage without any clue of why you're doing what you're doing. Second is with the type of reasoning you employ, which seems common. Claiming they have a choice to say they have no choice.

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Originally Posted by Taika

This is a slippery slope argument, and also a strawman. No one is advocating healer play that puts DPS before keeping your party members safe. The argument is, 1) when you know your party members are safe and don't need healing, do DPS, and 2) required healing in majority of the fights is so low that there is almost always room for healer DPS.

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I honestly don't see it that way. I've seen enough fresh lvl 60 DPS telling me that I should be dps'ing while I'm running out of MP healing an undergeared warrior in Deliverance or PLD in sword oath. Or party with 5 DPS, healer and one tank (most of whom are new) getting in every AOE then complaining I don't dps because they're not pushing phases and have to do mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Are you claiming that it's been possible in this game to complete Alexander Savage raids without any healer DPS when they've been released? Because I'd like to see a group like that for sure. :)

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Perhaps not in that situation, though in that situation you'd be working it out with your static; it is not something people should be using as a guideline to demand that others play by their rules.

I'd rather just heal you through AoEs and not dps honestly. Nothing really hurts much now anyway

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Originally Posted by Lexia

How about we just get rid of the holy trinity and put healers in dps and rename them dps with healing ability?

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I believe many people would love to see the first part happening :]
The concept here is not healers DPSing nonstop, but when they clearly are able to, which they refuse/ignore for no reason at all besides being lazy, while the rest of the party is working together. Healer dps abilities in this game are so strong, that ignoring them is a huge loss. If this game was like Tera, where healer's dps did like 80%~90% less damage than a normal DD class, I would completely buy that argument. How can people be ok with not using useful kits, with mediocrity. If a tank pulled mobs but didn't use mitigations making the healer's life a pain, and constantly moved targets out of other's positionals, they would get called out for doing so, because they're ignoring skills that could make it easier for everyone else in the run, but they were holding aggro, so using the argument of some people in this thread, the tank is right? why would it be different for a healer, why do we get a free pass when we have the tools? Imagine if a party, for whatever reason, happened to semi wipe with healer(s) down and a summoner alive, but the summoner refused to res one the/a healer and prevent a wipe just because he's a DD and not a support? using the same argument, the smn is right?

The fact that people want dungeons to go faster doesn't mean they don't have fun. No matter how much you love a game, your 435233254th run of the same type of content, that is generally the same with different visuals, is gonna be the same over and over no matter what. This game is based on repeating said content, so being faster means you can do more of other things and keep enjoying other aspects of the game aswell.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Sometimes you get a melee dps that is afraid of aoeing

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It ain't my fault my aoe only lasts 30 seconds and doesn't come back for a minute, and by that time we're on this same pull because the dumbass tank wants to pull the whole god damn room when there's two god damn dragoons. LEARN HOW TO DAISY CHAIN YOUR PULLS YOU IMPOTENT PIECES OF--oh dear, I'm sorry. I don't know what came over me just then

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

I don't know about you but I have done expert roulettes with double dragoon dps and they were melting away the biggest pack pulls you can imagine in a very very short time.
Ok my holy spam sure did help but they really knew what they were doing.
And honestly. Drg AoE isn't so bad.
I just lvled mine to 60 a week ago and I didn't feel helpless at all during the AoE pulls. So really, what's the problem there?

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You and I have vastly different definitions of "not so bad" then. To me it's luke watching paint dry. The only thing that ever depletes is both of their TP meters because the AST is allergic to Spire AND Gravity