Because a plus damage buff a plus damage bufskill is inherently the least interesting, most boring thing you can give a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zairava
I agree Living Shadow isn't much, but it has more flavor and niche uses than making DRK hit three self buffs every 2 minutes. Didn't mean to imply that BW or Delrium were damage buffs, just hitting 3 self buffs every burst window seems monotonous. And no pointing out that its a DoT doesn't make me hate it, I don't even hate Salted Earth. DoTs are fine to me, and have some useful application in underappreciated content in this game.
Meanwhile the "kit cohesion" you're talking about is literally, press button to do more damage for 20 seconds, bet you it would even have a 2 minute cooldown and line up perfectly with buff windows. Which in my honest opinion has been the bane of job design for all of Endwalker, but thats another discussion.
It also wouldn't make much sense from a balance perspective. The reason WAR and DRK don't have +20% damage skills like PLD and GNB is because they have +10% damage buffs with 100% uptime.
I also am just generally not a fan of people who are in favor of more homogenization, especially for tanks. People cry about DRK having so many removed skills, yet when it comes to talking about its balance they want to remove more skills and give it skills that already exist on other tanks? Thats what got us here in the first place.
Expand whats already there rather than cutting more away to make the job even more inline with the others.
Dark Knight Megathread
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04-17-2023, 04:46 AMOizen
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04-17-2023, 05:36 AMZairavaThat's why I also am for giving us actions that can only be accessed through Living Shadow being activeQuote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
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04-18-2023, 04:00 PMShurrikhanBut, Living Shadow being [to DRK] a sole partial-uptime damage buff (that therefore has inherent, if modest, interaction with the rest of DRK's kit) on a flexible CD is already less homogeneous than it being a DoT on a flexible CD. Even if you allow for variable consumption and thereby duration on the DoT, that's already been done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
A flexibly timed damage buff via gauge spending would be something unique to the game, possibly allowing DRK its own damage-windows that would rotate non-rigidly around the 2-minute raid buffs cycle; even a flexibly-duration DoT, though, is just MCH Turret/Queen (i.e., a DoT with a minimum cost and, at best, a separate maximum cost). It's been done.
And at present, that "unique" Living Shadow DoT... is just Sonic Break on a longer CD. That's not somehow better than a flexibly timable damage amp window. At least the latter has inherent kit interaction. -
04-19-2023, 01:47 AMOizenFight or Flight and No mercy already exist. Having a tank with a summon is more unique than +damage%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
But I mean while we're at it I honestly think that Delirium should give the 3 Bloodspiller we get guaranteed Crit/DHs and also give us knockback immunity, as well as immunity to some statuses. I think that be really unique. -
04-19-2023, 08:52 AMShurrikhanCool. Neither of those are on DRK, which therefore --for better or worse-- has nothing to rewardingly time any of its kit to outside of the 2-minute raid buffs. DRK, again, has zero partial-uptime damage-buffs; Darkside is passive. If added, it would be DRK's only partial-uptime damage buff. The only one in the game, but the sole one available to DRK. It's not about to therefore be redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
As for the present state, DRK doesn't have a summon. Living Shadow is just a DoT that can occasionally lose ticks due to a bug. It does absolutely nothing more than a DoT.
Because it's on a gauge spender instead of a hard CD, there's more one could do with Living Shadow. Heck, we could beyond that, in the spirit of a gauge spender, to have even deeper kit interactions in the interest of flexible timing that'd allow for a different sort of rhythm available to DRK's mini-bursts beyond just Bloodspiller spam.
There are, again, no flexible-CD damage buffs in the game. There are already flexible-duration DoTs. And the first is a hell of a lot more impactful for/in diversifying play.
I've suggested allowing Living Shadow (and/or synergies with a revised Shadowskin) to act an actualsummon, multiple times -- i.e., able to redirect threat to allow for repositioning, able to provide temporary HP, able to combo-attack (things that would actually make use of the Living Shadow as a pseudo-unit).
That said, it makes no sense to defend a zero-synergy DoT over a damage buff. The first has zero kit interaction; the latter at least has inherent kit interaction.[/B] You're running from one on the basis that'd it'd be 'effectively just a less frequent No Mercy' while ignoring that it's currently 'effectively just a less frequent Sonic Break', except without anything outside of the 2-minute raid buff cycle for it to be woven into.I'm not the one asking for the bare basics here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_User
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The heck are you on about?Quote:
But I mean while we're at it I honestly think that Delirium should give the 3 Bloodspiller we get guaranteed Crit/DHs and also give us knockback immunity, as well as immunity to some statuses. I think that be really unique.
You made an ultimatum between the current state ('Sonic Shadow') and a very practical, easily implemented alternative others noted would likely nonetheless do more for DRK's gameplay. Noticing that an incremental improvement is possible (for the gameplay of DRK and its diversity in practice) is not a request for homogeneity. -
04-19-2023, 10:15 AMOizenI can't even really tell what you're talking about at this point. All that lead to this is me saying I prefer Living Shadow as is, compared to giving DRK a clone of No Mercy, at the cost of removing another DRK skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Personally I think DRK lacking a FoF/NoMercy is intentional, same as why WAR doesn't have one.
For damage buffing they have Darkside and and Surging Tempest. Permanent uptime as long as you use Eye/Edge but with the trade off of it only being 10% instead of 20%.
It seems kinda like an intentional decision. You can't act like Darkside isn't a damage buff, it literally is. Just because you dont like how it functions doesn't mean it isn't one.
I just cant get behind requesting things be removed from DRK in favor of adding skills on other jobs to DRK. Just play the other jobs. I don't get why thats so hard.
I also don't get why people would want more of this after all the complaints of DRK being too similar to WAR after the rework. The answer isn't making it like GNB or PLD.
Another thing,
Why are DoTs bad exactly?
Why do you act like saying that is some game winning point.
What is wrong with damage over time skills? Do we remove Salted Earth?
What skill do we take off of GNB/PLD/WAR to replace it with?
Like I don't have an innate hatred for skills that say "do x damage over y time" but you clearly do yet want to play this job anyway, so uh...why?
If you want to make the skill more interactive engaging to the kit as a whole, sure that sounds good. If your answer is "remove skill, clone no mercy pls" like the person I originally replied to, then honestly stop playing the job? -
04-19-2023, 10:23 AMShurrikhanIs a non-combo-breaking DoT that you use on CD somehow unique to DRK, though? That's literally Sonic Break. If "Fight or Shadow" wouldn't be a "DRK skill", how then would "Living Break" be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
I haven't. I don't think DoTs are bad. I like DoTs --a lot-- for what they can do in synergetic contexts. I wouldn't advocate for a DoT Scourge, in due context, if I disliked DoTs.Quote:
Why are DoTs bad exactly?
Why do you act like saying that is some game winning point.
But without that context (or, any, in DRK's case), they're just damage CDs. Especially when they're literally CD-locked. As in the case for Living Shadow.It's just a more finnicky Sonic Break / new Goring Blade on double the CD. It does absolutely nothing unique (that it's a DoT makes no difference outside of it being more constrained), and it is in absolutely no capacity-affective or gameplay-affective way a "summon".
???Quote:
Like I don't have an innate hatred for skills that say "do x damage over y time" but you clearly do yet want to play this job anyway, so uh...why?
Neither ItzUrBoi nor Zairava were asking to replace Living Shadow with anything like a "No Mercy clone" for the sake of having a clone; in both cases, the intent of that replacement seemed to be in how it'd allow for DRK to be more distinct, not less. By having a flexible-CD damage amp window, DRK can create more interesting mini-burst windows, rather than falling asleep for 100 of every 120 seconds with a mere minor jolt at the 60 second mark to hit BW/Del and continue its priority order key-swiping.Quote:
If you want to make the skill more interactive engaging to the kit as a whole, sure that sounds good. If your answer is "remove skill, clone no mercy pls" like the person I originally replied to, then honestly stop playing the job?
You're asking to keep the same the things that least make DRK unique in practice. That's why I gave that earlier bit of advice: Don't focus solely on what uniqueness might pop out on paper (especially if you're going to ignore that every job likewise has a big-hit damage-GCD cooldown they either hit on CD [PLD, GNB, DRK] or ready on CD [WAR]) and start thinking also about how those tools work with each other (i.e., in practice). -
04-19-2023, 02:38 PMOizenI mean we can argue semantics all you want about this. Its just really, really lazy design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I'm not particularly happy that DRK and GNB already share the exact same skill with Heart of Light and Dark Missionary being the exact same skill. I don't want to see this done more
Guess what I'm missing is how does this change change any of this? Wouldn't this "mini burst" consist of exactly what DRK does now, except we're clicking 3 buffs instead of two?You're not going to use it without using Delirium and BW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Its going to be a use on cd buff skill, to keep it inline with buff windows.
Which is exactly what Living Shadow is now, but we're changing something for the sake of changing something. Its not going to feel better or worse, its just different.
You'd still have a grueling 45 seconds of 123 spam, the only difference is DRK's 1min burst, which already exists, would use 3 buffs, and hit slightly harder. The only difference it could even bring is maybe you'd dump your resources from overcapping here specifically, but again. You do that anyway now. In terms of gameplay nothing would change except one more skill to weave at the 1m burst window.
But if you're honestly truly arguing that giving a self buff skill with a 1 minute cooldown is somehow unique in Endwalker's 2 minute burst meta obsession then lol.
Its not going to change anything about DRK feeling dull to you. -
04-19-2023, 03:28 PMShurrikhanBut, again, you're not seeing any more. You already have a carbon-copy of Sonic Break except in that consumes some gauge and has twice the CD. Changing that from Sonic Break to No Mercy, even on paper, is no more a "carbon copy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
That depends. On the typical rate of use, above everything. Such is variable. Remember, we already have at least 3 different levers to pull if we aren't satisfied with Living Shadow just being a 2-minute Sonic Break with the opportunity cost of a single normal Bloodspiller: its available rate of use (including whether that be fixed or variable), its effective potency per use (including whether that be through new actions, a DoT, or as an amp), and its gauge interaction (including in what manner it's spent and/or what manner it's affected by gauge actions).Quote:
Guess what I'm missing is how does this change any of this?
In the above example, I was working under the assumption, given multiple times in this thread thus far, that --unless the CD must offer such high potency-per-use that it'd require a 2-minute CD (as not to imbalance level 70 Ultimates for even a base version of it were its frequency increased)-- we would actually leverage its gauge interaction to be more than just a base cost.More broadly, we could also completely change even the gauge it works from; all that's core to the skill at the moment is that it at least pretends towards being more integral than just a standard 2-minute CD, so making that more than a pretense obviously wouldn't be out of keeping with the skill.
Let's take one rough example of Living Shadow as, among other things, a damage amp window. For this, we'll assume that Darkside itself has already been revised to be a bit more difficult to maintain and/or optimize, but has been increased to a 20% modifier, with potencies adjusted accordingly.
With that, Living Shadow...Quote:
Quote:
Split your psyche to manifest your Darkside, drawing forth a Living Shadow that will exist until your Darkside is depleted. During this time, your Darkside drains at [twice/thrice] its normal rate but your Living Shadow will duplicate your attacks at 50% effect.- Requires at least 13 seconds of Darkside to activate and lasts for a maximum of 25 seconds.
- You do not benefit from Darkside while Living Shadow is active.
- Is a 20% damage increase (.8*1.5=1.2), and a 50% resource generation increase. A "No Mercy" with additional perks, including for survivability.
- Technically has no CD, and entices both minimum-length uses (to unload as much effective potency in as short a time as possible) and maximum-length uses (wherein the resource gained can help maintain Living Shadow).
- Encourages not overcapping Darkside, and would be wasteful to keep only in sync with Delirium/Blood Weapon or Shadowbringer bursts, though it should of course overlap with them.
Now, that's spitball as all heck, but it doesn't take much to look at how, roughly speaking, a damage amp could be given a flexible-CD that can't directly align with mere 1-minute buffs and could thereby do a heck of a lot more for DRK's gameplay than "On a 2-minute CD your Bloodspiller does 4x its normal damage, but as a DoT."
Of course, we can flex the DoT, too, to the same degree, but precisely because DRK lacks any amps of its own, there's only one pacing to sync it to: the 2-minute raid-buff cycle. And so it's obviously not going to be as lucrative to add just one more skill that we bank for raid-cycles or weave every-other use into raid cycles as to spend it towards giving us more to work our other fixed CDs around than just those 2-minute bursts.
As you said, if the damage amp were, in practice, just going to be used at precisely the same time as everything else, then that'd just be bloat (basically the same as just throwing yet one more skill at our 2-minute bursts). But which seems the design intent more worth building off -- that Living Shadow is now a 2-minute CD, or that it alleges gauge interaction? The latter can be in any sort of way, so long as it's making the systems it interacts with more engaging for/through its presence. Given that, it would seem better to go from 0 internal windows to actively work our fixed CDs around to 1 such window than to go from 4+ potency CDs anchorable only by raid-buff cycles to 5+ CDs doing so, no? -
04-19-2023, 04:46 PMLyth
Not to get overly bogged down with definitions, but when you use the term 'DoT', the majority of MMO players are going to think specifically of debuff effects on the mob that apply interval damage to it at server ticks. Once you deliberately stray from this to the more literal and general sense of 'Damage Over Time', you won't have a meaningful discussion on the subject with anyone else. It just devolves into a semantic debate where people redefine the term to suit their convenience.
Living Shadow is time-gated and resource-gated. What it currently tests is whether you have remembered to save up 50 blood as you approach the 120 seconds mark. In that regard, it's a bit like Double Down. Although strictly not the same, it's also a similar kind of check to what the old Kaiten ability provided. These types of effects, while not difficult to manage, seem increasingly rare in what seems to be a trend to simplify gauge management on jobs down as much as possible.
You can make a case for Living Shadow having more interactive effects, perhaps tied to a finisher move next expansion. A standard damage up buff is probably the least interesting way of doing this. I personally want to see something that counts an effect used by the player (Edge or Bloodspiller) and uses that counter to determine the strength of an tag team finisher. You can also make the case for making it feel more responsive, with shorter summoning time. But I would rather see ways of improving and building off of the existing effect rather than replacing it with a standard two minute buff.