Marriage feedback [inofficial Poll]

I want to marry myself so I can teleport myself to my location and back again for free with my two wedding rings.

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Originally Posted by Thebard

I want to marry myself so I can teleport myself to my location and back again for free with my two wedding rings.

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You.. want to teleport to yourself?

Hey watch guys! I'm going to teleport

*nothing happens*

SEEE!!!!

lol :P

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Originally Posted by Thebard

I want to marry myself so I can teleport myself to my location and back again for free with my two wedding rings.

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http://i48.tinypic.com/20rk2li.jpg

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Originally Posted by Shougun

You.. want to teleport to yourself?

Hey watch guys! I'm going to teleport

*nothing happens*

SEEE!!!!

lol :P

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No you see its a form of blink tanking, shhh don't tell em till its too late!

oh cool, is this an official spam thread now?

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Originally Posted by Phe

oh cool, is this an official spam thread now?

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better than a mega thread of people yelling at each other because they refuse to see different points of view

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Originally Posted by Phe

oh cool, is this an official spam thread now?

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No, you can make your own thread for that.

yea i know the thread for polygamous mass weddings.
sry but i'm too busy testing alpha.
...
wait.
i lied.
NDA.

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Originally Posted by Ralos

better than a mega thread of people yelling at each other because they refuse to see different points of view

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*looks at Ralos past few posts*
.....lol I see what you did there :P

Sometimes its just worth it to settle out of a post when it has turned into a stalemate (saying the same things back at each other).

While I know a few have made some "this thread is so mean, argumentative, or what have you" I still think this thread is a testament to some great and quite mellow debates. A couple trolls here and there but for the most part it wasn't that bad compared to other threads I've read, and even 100 fold so as this is a very hot topic in real life as well.

One of the things to perhaps consider is that Yoshida is gleaning information from the threads and does not plan on actually straight forward asking us (again) - to reduce public exposure of the issue. Like Skyrim it never really went (very) public even though it had SSM since Bethesda didnt make it a big deal. Though Bethesda didnt need to ask anyone in the first place - they just thought it should be in.

Yoshida mentioned a quest and ring - wonder if there will be outfits and ceremony locations like in FFXI.

Also.. will the ring be on the normal in game ring finger or will it be moved to the usual symbolic finger (extra ring to wear).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

*looks at Ralos past few posts*
.....lol I see what you did there :P

Sometimes its just worth it to settle out of a post when it has turned into a stalemate (saying the same things back at each other).

While I know a few have made some "this thread is so mean, argumentative, or what have you" I still think this thread is a testament to some great and quite mellow debates. A couple trolls here and there but for the most part it wasn't that bad compared to other threads I've read, and even 100 fold so as this is a very hot topic in real life as well.

One of the things to perhaps consider is that Yoshida is gleaning information from the threads and does not plan on actually straight forward asking us (again) - to reduce public exposure of the issue. Like Skyrim it never really went (very) public even though it had SSM since Bethesda didnt make it a big deal. Though Bethesda didnt need to ask anyone in the first place - they just thought it should be in.

Yoshida mentioned a quest and ring - wonder if there will be outfits and ceremony locations like in FFXI.

Also.. will the ring be on the normal in game ring finger or will it be moved to the usual symbolic finger (extra ring to wear).

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o.0 when did Skyrim have SSM , I do not remember having the option at all ( not that I would have chose to ) only remember something about an amulet being in possesion and finding somebody to marry me.. I got stuck with some pig woman with one eye ( not really, but thats how I viewed her ) after throwing her around the house with dragon voice I decided to kill her

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

o.0 when did Skyrim have SSM , I do not remember having the option at all ( not that I would have chose to ) only remember something about an amulet being in possesion and finding somebody to marry me.. I got stuck with some pig woman with one eye ( not really, but thats how I viewed her ) after throwing her around the house with dragon voice I decided to kill her

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Exactly ^_^. They did it perfectly. If you wanted it was there if you didnt care for it you never knew. They did it so well it barely hit the news.

Just the way it should be, this is a game so lets not make a big deal out of things.. but also lets also not be a prick to other players.. dont ask dont tell*. (Like I've said before, I take the real world issue in a different perhaps more aggressive "for" stance - but this is a video game so its not supposed to be abrasive (unless SE wants to teach us something, which usually MMORPGS dont attempt to do lol))

* I'm not saying you should have to be quiet.. just saying if its never brought up its never brought up. Just like a SM will probably be under the same circumstance - just those who would want to be involved are involved. (And as people have pointed out before a lot of us play sexes that are not our real sex with our significant others who may be the same in game sex - would be frustrating not to be able to bond with your wife/husband because of that).

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

o.0 when did Skyrim have SSM , I do not remember having the option at all ( not that I would have chose to ) only remember something about an amulet being in possesion and finding somebody to marry me.. I got stuck with some pig woman with one eye ( not really, but thats how I viewed her ) after throwing her around the house with dragon voice I decided to kill her

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just looked it up while I was posting this.. appears it was allowed but not really told you could , so only way to know was basically ask the same sex to marry you .. interesting. But that was also a single player realm, what works good there might not be very good for the masses together. I could care less really, but it is such a hot debate that I would not ever even think of doing it in an mmorpg, especially one I am trying to ressurect from near death

that's my opinion looking at from a business view

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

just looked it up while I was posting this.. appears it was allowed but not really told you could , so only way to know was basically ask the same sex to marry you .. interesting. But that was also a single player realm, what works good there might not be very good for the masses together. I could care less really, but it is such a hot debate that I would not ever even think of doing it in an mmorpg, especially one I am trying to ressurect from near death

that's my opinion looking at from a business view

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Looking from a business view you could also say that getting the ire of the LG community is no good either. From a business point of view I still think Bethesda did it excellently.

Also the assumption and past experience says the event would be done in an instance where only those that want to be involved are involved.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Looking from a business view you could also say that getting the ire of the LG community so no good either. From a business point of view I still think Bethesda did it excellently.

Also the assumption and past experience says the event would be done in an instance where only those that want to be involved are involved.

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That is a consideration in my view, and the very active mother community far exceeds the LG community. Chic filet is still around... where did JoeCamel go? get my point? Not trying to be mean or rude with that comment, but thats how I see it

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

That is a consideration in my view, and the very active mother community far exceeds the LG community. Chic filet is still around... where did JoeCamel go? get my point? Not trying to be mean or rude with that comment, but thats how I see it

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chick fila was forced to stop donating to organizations against SSM (who also promoted the Uganda Kill the gays bill) and the owner forced to apologize while looking like a fool >_>

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

That is a consideration in my view, and the very active mother community far exceeds the LG community. Chic filet is still around... where did JoeCamel go? get my point? Not trying to be mean or rude with that comment, but thats how I see it

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There is actually quite an impressive LG community in this game. One bigger then I've ever seen (or at least had the brains to notice lol). Also as you can see from the first page poll a large amount of supports in general. I'm not homosexual but I put a like to the for. I know, and assume more did such as I.

While perhaps the US* as a whole isn't ready to accept people different then themselves I think for the larger part of the FFXIV English community we can and are ready to. (At least from Forum data)

* I'm not a US hater - I think every country has a majority group that doesnt accept things just because its different. However as US is my motherland it is sad to sometimes say it for my own country.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

There is actually quite an impressive LG community in this game. One bigger then I've ever seen (or at least had the brains to notice lol). Also as you can see from the first page poll a large amount of supports in general. I'm not homosexual but I put a like to the for. I know, and assume more did such as I.

While perhaps the US as a whole isn't ready to accept people different then themselves I think for the larger part of the FFXIV English community we can and are ready to. (At least from Forum data)

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I understand that a lot of this community are for it, and most will still play it. But could other organizations give ff14 a bad rep and decrease future sales, yes. It isn't this games community I am worried about, it is the voice of other organizations that oppose this sort of thing, and they are good at it. I think they have already opened this can of sour potatoes ( wtf lol ) to much, and already causing a stink. Either way, now there will be people offended from one of the sides. I think it would have been better for Yoshi to not have said anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

I understand that a lot of this community are for it, and most will still play it. But could other organizations give ff14 a bad rep and decrease future sales, yes. It isn't this games community I am worried about, it is the voice of other organizations that oppose this sort of thing, and they are good at it. I think they have already opened this can of sour potatoes ( wtf lol ) to much, and already causing a stink. Either way, now there will be people offended from one of the sides. I think it would have been better for Yoshi to not have said anything at all.

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That's kind of why I'm somewhat leery of the idea of there even being any marriage at all in an mmo. It's too hot a button to press. The LG community will almost certainly demand that there is SSM allowed as well, and those against it will almost certainly demand that there isn't. Probably would have been best to keep it out of the game altogether.

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

I understand that a lot of this community are for it, and most will still play it. But could other organizations give ff14 a bad rep and decrease future sales, yes. It isn't this games community I am worried about, it is the voice of other organizations that oppose this sort of thing, and they are good at it. I think they have already opened this can of sour potatoes ( wtf lol ) to much, and already causing a stink. Either way, now there will be people offended from one of the sides. I think it would have been better for Yoshi to not have said anything at all.

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Oh come on now, you know and I know that any time "those kind" of people and organizations protest a game for content it ends up drawing in WAY more customers than it pushes away.

I agree entirely

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Originally Posted by eagleone

I agree entirely

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What? ............................................................................................./10.

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

That is a consideration in my view, and the very active mother community far exceeds the LG community. Chic filet is still around... where did JoeCamel go? get my point? Not trying to be mean or rude with that comment, but thats how I see it

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Why are you comparing homosexual causes to the tobacco industry? I mean, I suppose you might have been trying to show that religious groups have more power overall, but the case against cigarettes wasn't wholly religious no matter how religious the opposition was.

A better, more recent example would be JC Penney and TV shows like "The New Normal", who religious anti-gay groups had been waging war with for a while to no effect. As for Chick Fil A, their locations are heavily concentrated in states that already agree with their owner's message. It's not surprising that a boycott wouldn't hit them quite as hard, especially since such high profile figures in the opposition were forming a reverse boycott at the same time.

It would also seem that people with fundamentalist views that are often required to be adamantly anti-gay aren't likely to play this game in the first place, while being pro-gay has become increasingly more mainstream with everyone else. Add to that the fact that you don't really see a lot of anti-gay groups making a fuss out of video games. In fact I can't recall the last time any of them have made a big fuss about any video game, much less the more involved ones like Final Fantasy. They're ultimately more concerned about TV and movies as far as entertainment goes.

In fact, you could argue that having the religious right oppose your video game could help you. There was a lot of backlash from people who don't play video games about GTA's violence, and that backlash ended up rocketing the series into a successful franchise.

On the other side of things, if they ban in-game gay marriage they will lose paying customers to be sure, but I can't say that it'll be as bad of a backlash so long as the devs make it clear that they're not doing it out of prejudice or religious animus and are instead trying to keep controversy away from their game. It'll be severely disappointing to those who were hoping for the feature, but many people might say that wanting to say away from controversy is understandable.

Whereas people like me would wonder why siding with the anti-gay position is a good way of avoiding the controversy.

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Originally Posted by Anakhu

I understand that a lot of this community are for it, and most will still play it. But could other organizations give ff14 a bad rep and decrease future sales, yes. It isn't this games community I am worried about, it is the voice of other organizations that oppose this sort of thing, and they are good at it. I think they have already opened this can of sour potatoes ( wtf lol ) to much, and already causing a stink. Either way, now there will be people offended from one of the sides. I think it would have been better for Yoshi to not have said anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Oh come on now, you know and I know that any time "those kind" of people and organizations protest a game for content it ends up drawing in WAY more customers than it pushes away.

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Not to mention most times they're not even gamers. Thus far the gaming sites that have actually "reported" on this issue have been either entirely neutral or against the restriction. Very few comments on those articles are against the inclusion of SSM or something like it. Most question the addition of marriage as a whole or complain about various agendas being pushed in their face by an article they willingly clicked on and read. Most of the comments actually discussing the issue at hand were for it.

I think there should be a new poll

"Are you willing to allow Yoshi to take back every saying anything beyond we are adding in marriage"

I would say yes.

The world doesn't need to know if they do or don't. The only reason this is controversal is the too many people that don't even play or plan to play FFXIV know they going in some kind of direction with it. All those external articles made about the issue should have instead been the same as skyrims "They added SSM?! WHO KNEW?! and who cares"

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Originally Posted by Reika

I think there should be a new poll
"Are you willing to allow Yoshi to take back every saying anything beyond we are adding in marriage"
I would say yes.

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Can you imagine the headlines on that?
I think that train has left. They have to deal with it now.
No one wants a topic like this that shouldn't even be up for discussion to taint the launch of an otherwise cherished game.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

Why are you comparing homosexual causes to the tobacco industry? I mean, I suppose you might have been trying to show that religious groups have more power overall, but the case against cigarettes wasn't wholly religious no matter how religious the opposition was.

A better, more recent example would be JC Penney and TV shows like "The New Normal", who religious anti-gay groups had been waging war with for a while to no effect. As for Chick Fil A, their locations are heavily concentrated in states that already agree with their owner's message. It's not surprising that a boycott wouldn't hit them quite as hard, especially since such high profile figures in the opposition were forming a reverse boycott at the same time.

It would also seem that people with fundamentalist views that are often required to be adamantly anti-gay aren't likely to play this game in the first place, while being pro-gay has become increasingly more mainstream with everyone else. Add to that the fact that you don't really see a lot of anti-gay groups making a fuss out of video games. In fact I can't recall the last time any of them have made a big fuss about any video game, much less the more involved ones like Final Fantasy. They're ultimately more concerned about TV and movies as far as entertainment goes.

In fact, you could argue that having the religious right oppose your video game could help you. There was a lot of backlash from people who don't play video games about GTA's violence, and that backlash ended up rocketing the series into a successful franchise.

On the other side of things, if they ban in-game gay marriage they will lose paying customers to be sure, but I can't say that it'll be as bad of a backlash so long as the devs make it clear that they're not doing it out of prejudice or religious animus and are instead trying to keep controversy away from their game. It'll be severely disappointing to those who were hoping for the feature, but many people might say that wanting to say away from controversy is understandable.

Whereas people like me would wonder why siding with the anti-gay position is a good way of avoiding the controversy.

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very well said. i agree

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

In fact, you could argue that having the religious right oppose your video game could help you.

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Because that worked so well for EA.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

On the other side of things, if they ban in-game gay marriage they will lose paying customers to be sure, but I can't say that it'll be as bad of a backlash so long as the devs make it clear that they're not doing it out of prejudice or religious animus and are instead trying to keep controversy away from their game. It'll be severely disappointing to those who were hoping for the feature, but many people might say that wanting to say away from controversy is understandable.

Whereas people like me would wonder why siding with the anti-gay position is a good way of avoiding the controversy.

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You make the false and arrogant assumption that your position is the default position, and that it always has been. This couldn't be more clear than when you said: "ban in-game gay marriage", as though SSM was already designed into ARR, and Yoshi-P is arbitrarily dropping a ban-hammer on it.

Face it, the idea of gay marriage wouldn't have occurred to any game designer prior to the year 2000. Could you imagine playing FFIV back in the day and seeing Cecil and Kain getting married at the end?? People then would have laughed at it like it was some sort of crazy joke.

But here's the bottom line:

If people quit FFXIV over an absence of SSM in it, then perhaps they may have been playing the game for the wrong reasons.

But, if people quit FFXIV because SE has effectively taken sides in a hot-button political issue, then it's very likely they will have a distaste for not just this game, but for SE as a company. That means lost sales that far exceed the scope of this one game.

How many people do you know that enjoy in-game ads? What about overt product placement in their favorite show? Well, introducing RL boiler-plate politics into a game is far, FAR worse.



/sigh.. I said I wouldn't' bump this silly thread anymore...

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

You make the false and arrogant assumption that your position is the default position, and that it always has been. This couldn't be more clear than when you said: "ban in-game gay marriage", as though SSM was already designed into ARR, and Yoshi-P is arbitrarily dropping a ban-hammer on it.

Face it, the idea of gay marriage wouldn't have occurred to any game designer prior to the year 2000. Could you imagine playing FFIV back in the day and seeing Cecil and Kain getting married at the end?? People then would have laughed at it like it was some sort of crazy joke.

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However, the world is constantly evolving past such petty closed mindsets

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But here's the bottom line:

If people quit FFXIV over an absence of SSM in it, then I think they may have been playing for the wrong reasons.

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But if they quit if they add SSM, then its okay?

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If people quit FFXIV because SE has effectively taken sides in a hot-button political issue, then it's very likely they will have a distaste for not just this game, but for SE as a company.

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Or because they didn't pick the side they are on.

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How many people do you know that enjoy in-game ads? What about overt product placement in their favorite show? Well, introducing RL politics into a game is far, FAR worse.


/sigh.. I said I wouldn't' bump this silly thread anymore...

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It's already been brought up multiply time that this didn't need to become an issue. Right now, its only an issue in the minds of dieing breeds, which you can see by the poll, they really are dying off. Prior to Y2K, the number of dislikes probably would have been much higher and the likes much lower, according to what you say. But this isn't prior to Y2K anymore.

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Originally Posted by Reika

It's already been brought up multiply time that this didn't need to become an issue. Right now, its only an issue in the minds of dieing breeds, which you can see by the poll, they really are dying off.

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Speaking of dying breeds...

Look at the changing demographics in Europe.

Some countries are looking at ~50% Muslim populations with 30-40 years.

What do you suppose the majority of citizens in Antwerp, Brussels, or London in 2045 would think of SSM? Somehow, I suspect they would consider your position 'antiquated' rather than 'evolved'.

Everyone has their own perspective I guess. I find it best to think to think long-term and big-picture.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Speaking of dying breeds...

Look at the changing demographics in Europe.

Some countries are looking at ~50% Muslim populations with 30-40 years.

What do you suppose the majority of citizens in Antwerp, Brussels, or London in 2045 would think of SSM? Somehow, I suspect they would consider your position 'antiquated' rather than 'evolved'.

Everyone has their own perspective I guess. I find it best to think to think long-term and big-picture.

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Well when you have your newfound muslim overlords in 2045, you can tell them their Bahamut is a dragon and not a whale, and Ifrit can be called to help you, and that there are twelve deities, none named Allah. I'm sure they'll be all aflutter at the idea. Or if not, they'll vent whatever grievance as this game and no other in the series where Bahamut is a dragon and not a whale, Ifrit can be called to help you, and Allah is still not around, but Leviathan is, with water attacks to boot.

If FFXIV lasts that long in the MMO market, I'm pretty sure there will be no question that its been a rousing success and moneymaker for SE.

And I am aware that Islam is not the wall of unified intolerance some think it is. It isn't even a centralized faith.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Well when you have your newfound muslim overlords in 2045, you can tell them their Bahamut is a dragon and not a whale, and Ifrit can be called to help you, and that there are twelve deities, none named Allah. I'm sure they'll be all aflutter at the idea. Or if not, they'll vent whatever grievance as this game and no other in the series where Bahamut is a dragon and not a whale, Ifrit can be called to help you, and Allah is still not around, but Leviathan is, with water attacks to boot..

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http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/...067263235.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

snip

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My point still stands, there are well established parts of the Final Fantasy series that would stoke the ire of whatever right wing Muslim groups that would complain at this than SSM in one of the games, such as the appropriation of aspects of their mythology.

And you would have to go through a lot of assumptions considering many countries like England have also been on the rise of accepting SSM, but are being blocked because of religious organizations fearing for their status. Brussels, Belgium having had SSM since 2003. The act itself being legal in Belgium since before 1800....

So here's your picture back.

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/...067263235.jpeg

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/23839069.jpg

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

derp

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So you're using Willy Wonka to nitpick about the last part of my post, ignoring the rest?

Tell me again how you plan to cower to future demographics.

In 2045 FFXIV will be long gone even as a commercial success.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Because that worked so well for EA.

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EA tried to create their own controversy, that's why there was a backlash. I'm talking about games like Grand Theft Auto and Mortal Kombat that basically made it big in the US for being offensive.

Why do you think EA wanted to stir up controversy in the first place? Because it gets the attention of the non-gaming religious community who essentially give them free advertising to gamers who probably don't watch the 700 Club all day.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

You make the false and arrogant assumption that your position is the default position, and that it always has been. This couldn't be more clear than when you said: "ban in-game gay marriage", as though SSM was already designed into ARR, and Yoshi-P is arbitrarily dropping a ban-hammer on it.

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No, the default position is that gay people exist, and they form relationships that aren't any different from straight people. In a regular game, I guess you could get away with your cast all being heterosexual, but in an MMO where you're allowing people from all over to express themselves through their avatars, not letting two characters of the same sex marry IS like dropping the ban-hammer on it.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Face it, the idea of gay marriage wouldn't have occurred to any game designer prior to the year 2000. Could you imagine playing FFIV back in the day and seeing Cecil and Kain getting married at the end?? People then would have laughed at it like it was some sort of crazy joke.

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And any story of an interracial marriage in a book before 1940 would have also seemed weird. What's your point here?

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

But, if people quit FFXIV because SE has effectively taken sides in a hot-button political issue, then it's very likely they will have a distaste for not just this game, but for SE as a company. That means lost sales that far exceed the scope of this one game.

How many people do you know that enjoy in-game ads? What about overt product placement in their favorite show? Well, introducing RL boiler-plate politics into a game is far, FAR worse.

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Sorry, but no matter what SE does now they'll be taking sides on a hot-button political issue. Maybe they could have avoided taking sides if they didn't already respond to the fans that were asking whether gay marriage will be allowed in game, but now that they have made a statement, it can't be undone.

But why is it that you somehow think that a game can't have gay relationships and still be enjoyable? Mass Effect and Dragon Age were both great games that treated gay relationships just like straight relationships, and most gamers (read:those who don't think like twelve year olds) were fine. The games did really well and no one was hurt, nor did they catch "the gay".

So really I can't see how allowing gay marriage will really ruin anyone's experience like an in-game ad would. Unless the sight of gay people being treated like normal human beings just ruins your game experience. You might have bigger problems in that case.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

Sorry, but no matter what SE does now they'll be taking sides on a hot-button political issue. Maybe they could have avoided taking sides if they didn't already respond to the fans that were asking whether gay marriage will be allowed in game, but now that they have made a statement, it can't be undone.
.

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Wrong.

They could just drop the whole marriage thing completely, as it's ultimately meaningless and a waste of development time.

But since they apparently are planning to add a commitment ceremony in the game, they should call it something other than 'marriage', and allow any players to participate with no restrictions/limits on gender or number of participants.

No matter your thoughts on SSM, who could possibly have a problem with that?


(sheesh, we are treading old territory here)

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Wrong.

They could just drop the whole marriage thing completely, as it's ultimately meaningless and a waste of development time.

But since they apparently are planning to add a commitment ceremony in the game, they should call it something other than 'marriage', and allow any players to participate with no restrictions/limits on gender or number of participants.

No matter your thoughts on SSM, who could possibly have a problem with that?


(sheesh, we are treading old territory here)

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Rescind an announcement of content that other games have had no problem including?

That wouldn't help in any way, gaming journalists would pounce on Yoshi P , highlighting a moment of fear in what were otherwise bold steps in changing the game.

But yeah, the Eorzean marriage ceremony renamed would be a good solution, and will ultimately prove discriminating pixels is a dumb idea.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

But yeah, the ceremony renamed would be a good solution

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We agree then. :)

/Thread

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

We agree then. :)

/Thread

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Yep have all marriages in game involve said tradition

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Yep have all commitments in game involve said tradition

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fixed.

And refrain from gender and number-of-participant limits.