An Open Letter to Yoshida-san: Please Slice One Zero Off the Housing Prices

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You forget that the vast majority of players don't have several hours a day to dedicate to playing the market, and that little time they get, they actually like to use to play the game.

Also "get over it" is no valid argument. Thankfully people didn't "Get over it" when 1.0 was released.

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A great many people "got over it" in 1.0. They "got over it" and left.

seems to me there forcing you to sub as long as possible now with all there BS week lockouts. basically telling you, you can only play mondays or 4 times a month.
everything they release is broken why not finish it before you release it? broken PVP, bad design for the housing, 6 months till CT gets content. crafting useless everything is from NPC reason the economy is trash.
1.0 90% gil wipe was BS too.
3 more days of my sub left. i dont see anymore points to bother loging in.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=0

With the new announcement made for housing, JP player on JP forums made this chat showing how long it will take for each groups price to Group 3 (Group A in the updated housing info)

グループ = Group
Date on the left is in Month/Day format
Next column shows the time drop for every 6 hours

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ありえないな。　orz

I'm just so glad I deleted my 1.0 char and started over in a brand new server for 2.0. At the time I did it because I wanted to start ARR from scratch and because I felt staying in a Legacy server would make things more difficult than I wanted them to be. And seeing how they treat players in those serves it seems I also avoided a ton of discrimination.

Such a nice way to reward the players that supported the game back when it was garbage while it got out of the hole. Not to mention it seems as if XIV is actually going backwards now.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

SE could fix this though...by adjusting our prices to meet Group A worlds NOW!
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Do we get the 'max price for World A Groups or their 'current Market value in March' price?

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As much as I disagree with how SE priced the Legacy worlds, or their overall housing strategy (no upgrades?!), if they did drop legacy to Group A "Now" they would get flooded with purchases. Most (perhaps 99%) of v1 player savings did not justify the 2.5x and 5x pricing differences, but they could fairly easily add up with ARR earnings to afford an appropriately-sized plot at Group A pricing.

As for max price vs current price: SE wants to do things gradually. Even if they set pricing to max at their given intervals (see here), it would be a faster price reduction than if they didn't. For example, on January 1 the time-reduced price of a 20M small house would be 18.3M. If they set it to max of the new price, that would be 18M. If they kept the 15 day-old price reduction, the price would be 16.5M. It's not a huge difference, so SE could choose either. Of course if an FC bought it at 18M and it changed an hour or so later to 16.5M, they might squeal about it. There are pluses and minuses to either approach.

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Originally Posted by DannyNobuser

try using the markets as intended you can easily make 100k+ in less than a day.

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Every 100k you make from the markets is 100k taken from other players who now have 100k less to spend on housing. In an optimal market (which is so rare we don't even have it in the real world right now), the majority of that wealth would be coming from the people with the most disposable gil. The problem in the game is that the wealthiest players have no need for literally anything you put up on the market, so that gil is completely out of circulation.

If you're making money on the markets, you're just taking money from other poor-ish people and slowly pooling it into another large economy-free pool of stagnation until you eventually dump it off into the void that is housing land costs of gil removal (and then everyone is that much poorer for it!).

Cue the game's economy is a joke posts.

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Originally Posted by ArkhamNative

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Then they should have used other means, aside from false inflation, to make it so that housing wouldn't be purchased in 1-2 weeks on legacy worlds.

1. Could have required a level 10 FC instead of 6.
2. Could have had to be quested etc by FC mates
3. Could be behind a Grand Company questline
...None of these are financial roadblocks, but would have still required teamwork and dedication to get through...especially quickly. They would have encouraged people to log in and work as a FC towards a goal


OR if they also wanted, really wanted it to 'get rid of legacy gil' then they could have given every server/world the same price for each lot...but made it so people had to bid on the land to buy it.
1. If someone bids, price is raised a specific amount (maybe 100K on small lots, but 1mil on large estates). If someone else is ALSO interested in that plot, they can bid...as long as people keep bidding before the bidding window closes (maybe 18 hr window), the price keeps going up. Once no bids have been made in the allotted bid window, plot goes to highest bid.
2. If NO ONE bids, price decreases on each plot by .14%. As soon as someone bids on it, the bidding window opens up and price can start to rise on it again.

This too would have kept legacy worlds from buying too many too fast...because the bid wars would take time/days to finish up. It ALSO would have gotten rid of more money because people would be willing to pay premiums to 'get the good one' or 'be first' ....and would have started bidding because the starting bid prices seem reasonable and affordable.

As to 'we didn't want the rich to buy up all the land'. Make deeds Rare/EX. Done. If someone doesn't want their plot, it is sold back to the game, and unlocks for someone else to purchase from game.

But no...they did THIS.

They pulled down their virtual pants and virtually took a shit on all of their most loyal customers during their painfully obvious time of need back in 1.0 to 1.2. Yes we get a legacy chocobo.. which means nothing, because everyone on a legacy server pretty much has one... yes we keep our level... but gil pretty well gone already and STILL have to do all of the main story quests and REDO all of the AF quests we already busted our backs getting done under much more difficult circumstances in 1.0 to 1.2. However, we the only true supporters of SE's previously failed product are now treated worse than the scrubs who show up for unveiling day and who will leave again when they get bored. The die hard fans who keep ships like this running *cough* ffxi *coughs more* are the last people SE should be actively alienating under poorly thought out, false pretenses.

Materia melding the best accessories already emptied the coffers of most legacy players who had a lot of gil. Furthermore, not ALL legacy players were rich. The vast majority of us probably came to 2.0 with under 200k, I started with 50k. Make housing an FC purchased unlock. lower price, for the love of a wise business decision stop defecating on the people who pay your bills when times get tough, make housing require weekly earned tokens from end game content and do all of this soon, before you notice your game product becoming more like SWTOR after 4 months of pay to play.

Daily bump of justice. Reduce prices SE. For all worlds.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You forget that the vast majority of players don't have several hours a day to dedicate to playing the market, and that little time they get, they actually like to use to play the game.

Also "get over it" is no valid argument. Thankfully people didn't "Get over it" when 1.0 was released.

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Im from 1.0 I played that game at launch its was terrible. you didn't need the players to speak up much for the developers to see that the game was terrible sales and consistent long time players quitting to go back to 11 showed them they needed to change. I am in no way a wealthy player but instead of complaining about prices. I look for the logic in all of this and the FC im in all members are working toward buying a house we all donate money toward it. Its just not one person perhaps you should get your entire FC to pitch instead of giving an argument reference to 1.0 which the comparisons are so far fetched. Your exaggeration are not needed in a conversation.

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Originally Posted by Raithen

Every 100k you make from the markets is 100k taken from other players who now have 100k less to spend on housing. In an optimal market (which is so rare we don't even have it in the real world right now), the majority of that wealth would be coming from the people with the most disposable gil.

If you're making money on the markets, you're just taking money from other poor-ish people and slowly pooling it into another large economy-free pool of stagnation until you eventually dump it off into the void that is housing land costs of gil removal (and then everyone is that much poorer for it!).

Cue the game's economy is a joke posts.

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So I should do nothing come on the forums and complain instead of trying to make the money that is needed for my FC to prosper towards buying a house. I am not snatching money from lowly players I fight the infamous Xyx with prices everyday before I go raid. yes the economy is wrecked but its by the people who buy gi

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As much as I disagree with how SE priced the Legacy worlds, or their overall housing strategy (no upgrades?!), if they did drop legacy to Group A "Now" they would get flooded with purchases. Most (perhaps 99%) of v1 player savings did not justify the 2.5x and 5x pricing differences, but they could fairly easily add up with ARR earnings to afford an appropriately-sized plot at Group A pricing.

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And they have tons of other ways to prevent that flooding, including make some kind of house purchasing queue.
It would be annoying, but still a shorter wait than sitting on cold ground for months while prices get down. And fairer to whoever will actually pay an high price out of hype before that, and hurt they purse more just to help SE to avoid the flood (from where I'm from they give incentives for helping, not discourging).

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Originally Posted by DannyNobuser

Im from 1.0 I played that game at launch its was terrible. you didn't need the players to speak up much for the developers to see that the game was terrible sales and consistent long time players quitting to go back to 11 showed them they needed to change. I am in no way a wealthy player but instead of complaining about prices. I look for the logic in all of this and the FC im in all members are working toward buying a house we all donate money toward it. Its just not one person perhaps you should get your entire FC to pitch instead of giving an argument reference to 1.0 which the comparisons are so far fetched. Your exaggeration are not needed in a conversation.

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While I do agree that you should get your entire FC to pitch in (because that's kind of the definition of a "Free Company House," I think), these prices are such that it's very hard for most FCs to come up with the money - even with most or all of their members pitching in. The first house on my server was purchased by RareX, a PvE raiding guild. I spoke to one of their members, and to buy a medium house, they spent a month and a half with every member at max level having a quota of 8 Philo items each day for two days a week, and 4 Philo items each day for the other 5 days of the week. That's something like 40 runs of WP or AK per person, over and above any Philo gear the players themselves may have needed. Is this really what should be needed to get a house? That kind of insane grind seems over the top for me with respect to something that has little to no value at the present time outside of, perhaps, RP or socialization. They have many more members at max than my guild does, which means that even if that strategy were still viable (it's not, as the prices for tomestone items have now crashed), it would take us much, much longer to ever hope to get that kind of money.

Just seems over the top to me. Housing shouldn't be something only a hardcore raiding guild can afford.

I'm coming round to the house prices being okay. A liiiiiittle over priced, but not too much. Our FC would need 50m for a large one in 90 days, and it's doable, but with a fair amount of work. I think the amount of work is a bit much though.

But how much will the house itself cost? Or can it all be gathered and built, so just shard costs really.

SO TELL ME miss YOSHIDA, WHERE I SHOULD MAKE MONEY IN RAGNAROK server when the fucking every items gonna get CUT on price? Example, hello materia IV crit, from 180k to 100k now to 40k, and soon to 20k? Come on Yoshida, tell me where the fuck I should make money for buy a house? Can you hear me? Should I buy it from RMT? Is that you want?

what i don't understand it's why they haven't make a system where buy the landplot is the start, byt paying and doing more, you will have upgrade your land plot for build bigger mansion and all... no instead we get a system quite incomplet and more bad unfair in function of your server.

Yoshida, if you have RMT problem is you and your team fault, not players fault for doesn't have any counter-measure. Remember it.

Someone is pissy....ahmm Black_Pearl.....the housing areas will be ghost towns they aren't worth it.

I don't give a damn, actually. I just want answer, since everything in Market Board in my server is goind down. Also is not my problem of RMT and I shouldn't be punished or stuff because them. I don't care if X player have 300 milions neither and neither I care if my server have 666 milions.

If everything in your server is getting cheaper, the number of gil in circulation should also lower in time, and the price of everything (including house) will go down.

If everything actually gets more expensive, the number of gil in circulation should also rise in time, and the result is the price of everything (including house) will rise. IIRC this is called Inflation, and the more YOU try to circumvent it with RMT, the higher the inflation rate. If money comes so easily in your server, SE will have to increase the price even more to make sure the burgeois do not steam roll and buy everything at once, destroying the casual players in the process. RMT is the shortcut player would think first, but pretty much nobody thinks of the long-term consequences. THIS is one of the reasons why SE tries their best to keep RMT down

SE tries to keep the price of houses relative to the amount of gil in circulation, so that the value of the house, compared to the value of gil, is roughly the same across servers. This means that you should not compare the price in raw gil, but compare the price in other things instead. Check how much is the price of, say, a piece of Coke in your server, and check the price of Coke in another server. The price of the same house in the respective servers should allow each player to buy the same amount of coke in their respective servers.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Just seems over the top to me. Housing shouldn't be something only a hardcore raiding guild can afford.

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I see what you are trying to say and you are being very reasonable the prices of the housing is far fetched I was just defending my opinion. I am still trying to figure out what se is trying to do. I personally think they are trying to take a large amount of gil out of our server. The only reason I can think is gil buyers and sellers. everyone was hit when they reduced our cushion when 2.0 was released but I see people selling primal fights from the day they had them down and they are charging 1.5 to 2mil on my server I think its ridiculous and its not just the devs its some of the players too that I think are the reason behind the prices on housing

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Originally Posted by Black_Pearl

SO TELL ME miss YOSHIDA, WHERE I SHOULD MAKE MONEY IN RAGNAROK server when the fucking every items gonna get CUT on price? Example, hello materia IV crit, from 180k to 100k now to 40k, and soon to 20k? Come on Yoshida, tell me where the fuck I should make money for buy a house? Can you hear me? Should I buy it from RMT? Is that you want?

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I feel your pain Xyz is someone I continue to fight on the market boards he low balls me at every turn

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

blablabla.

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I repeat I goddamn don't care of what are server stuff, I care not everyone have 300 milions to spend on housing, and don't care if SE have rmt problems, and don't care if SE broken the game with stuff (hello philo items got dropped drastically or materia). Is THEIR problem to don't have counter-measure for it. Is easy to say, price is fine like this when you are in a server where your fucking house is less cheaper or whatever or you can afford now, when other people are FORCED to buy in 6 months. My server have drastically dropped on market board in EVERYTHING. Undyed shit got killed on price, materia IV got killed, philo items got killed. Now, unless you are rich from 1.0 where players should get money when nothing give them to afford a "small shit house"?

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Originally Posted by DannyNobuser

I see what you are trying to say and you are being very reasonable the prices of the housing is far fetched I was just defending my opinion. I am still trying to figure out what se is trying to do. I personally think they are trying to take a large amount of gil out of our server. The only reason I can think is gil buyers and sellers. everyone was hit when they reduced our cushion when 2.0 was released but I see people selling primal fights from the day they had them down and they are charging 1.5 to 2mil on my server I think its ridiculous and its not just the devs its some of the players too that I think are the reason behind the prices on housing

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There are people that charges money to help you with Primals? O.o

Surely people could just join an FC or something?

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Originally Posted by Black_Pearl

bla bla bla

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And I do care. I don't want FFXIV to go down just because some random people keeps nourishing RMT instead of reporting them. This is not single-player where you are indeed expected to get everything nor is it necessary to have a house. There is no gameplay element tied to house except the house system itself. If you want a house, then work for it, or wait until prices go down THEN work for it

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

And I do care. I don't want FFXIV to go down just because some random people keeps nourishing RMT instead of reporting them.

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Serious, are you crazy? I reported them thousand of times, for see them still in blacklist (Not Deleted), so what's the point to report them?
You was see ppl to mining warp, you report them and nothing next days they was still THERE. Come on, stop defend a company like SE, and try to feedback something serious, is your money goddamnit.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

what i don't understand it's why they haven't make a system where buy the landplot is the start, byt paying and doing more, you will have upgrade your land plot for build bigger mansion and all... no instead we get a system quite incomplet and more bad unfair in function of your server.

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Yup, that's my biggest beef with the housing system. The work is all front loaded and doesn't even involve the actual content. Once you grind up the gil, there's hardly anything to do.

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

There are people that charges money to help you with Primals? O.o

Surely people could just join an FC or something?

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absolutely I happens all the time on my server poor noobs who are not legacy will pay to get a primal win. The housing situation has only added to it even my FC is thinking about selling EX primal fights. I have even seen them try to sell coil runs but those were shut down to the vast amount of people who do coils

The price of housing is the biggest incentive to use RMT that is in the game now. So I don't see how they think high pricing is going to solve RMT problems.

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Originally Posted by DannyNobuser

I see what you are trying to say and you are being very reasonable the prices of the housing is far fetched I was just defending my opinion. I am still trying to figure out what se is trying to do. I personally think they are trying to take a large amount of gil out of our server. The only reason I can think is gil buyers and sellers. everyone was hit when they reduced our cushion when 2.0 was released but I see people selling primal fights from the day they had them down and they are charging 1.5 to 2mil on my server I think its ridiculous and its not just the devs its some of the players too that I think are the reason behind the prices on housing

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I never saw primal fights go for that much. I think the most I saw was 700-800k, and that was for Titan itself. Most people didn't need help prior to that, it's just that Titan is a large step up from the general "difficulty" level of the previous parts of the questline. I think that trying to take so much gil out of the economy is, however, a bad idea. Most of that gil isn't circulating as is, but completely removing it will leave even less gil circulating - which leads to deflation. Which we're seeing right now. Between the housing situation and bots dumping on the markets, it's really become frustrating and discouraging, to say the least. Hopefully, as the prices on housing are finally lowered to reasonable levels, things will pick up again.

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

There are people that charges money to help you with Primals? O.o

Surely people could just join an FC or something?

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What if their FC doesn't have enough people, or not enough people at max, or what if they aren't very good at the PvE part of the game? People join Free Companies for all kinds of reasons, and only one of them (raiding) is one that would help with primals. :) People on my server and others have sold Titan kills and such, and I personally don't see any issue with it - if people want to spend their money there, then by all means.

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Originally Posted by Black_Pearl

I repeat I goddamn don't care of what are server stuff,

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I understand your frustration. Please believe me - I really do. But you need to be careful how you phrase things on this forum. Cussing, yelling, and verbally abusing people isn't going to get you anywhere - and may very well earn you a forum vacation. :(

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Originally Posted by MortalWare

The price of housing is the biggest incentive to use RMT that is in the game now. So I don't see how they think high pricing is going to solve RMT problems.

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Absolutely correct. And I think that's the biggest issue here.
If they were just trying to put a challenge on the players, not a big deal. I mean, it's still unfair and unreasonable, and a lot more senseful in F2P MMO, yet understandable.
But they are helping RMT a lot this way, instead of fighting them: if RMT is fire, it's like SE is throwing gasoline at it instead of water.

That Leaves only two possible explanations:
1) They don't care enough.
2) RMT gives a cut of their gain to SE.

I guess the first one is correct, even if I cherish the possibility of the cospiracy behind the latter!

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

SE tries to keep the price of houses relative to the amount of gil in circulation, so that the value of the house, compared to the value of gil, is roughly the same across servers.

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About that:

I made a 'price checking mule/spy' on a 'World A' mostly to keep tabs on their current Housing Prices so I could know what my worlds housing prices will be. But while I was on this world, I decided that it would be prudent to check the ward prices of some random items and compare them to the same item and price on my server that day:

Results:
Higland Parsley: Them 100 ea Us 110. NOT 2.5 times the price like housing is. (250 ea)
Buttons in a Blanket: Them 845ea Us 950each Not 2.5 times the price like housing is (2113 ea)
Button Mushrooms: Them 85ea Us 60ea. Not 2.5 times like price of housing (213 ea)
Sun Lemons: Them 170ea Us 200 ea. Not 2.5 times like price of housing (425ea)
HQ Vanya Robe or Healing: Them 100K Us 125K Not 2.5 times like price of housing (250K)

My point, your arguement is moote because IF gil was really inflated on my legacy server to 2.5 times the value of gil on 'World A' servers, then our prices would be closer to those in the parenthesis and NOT basically the same as the World A prices. As to the 'but you all have more savings....' That may or may not be true....but punishing customers that played and SAVED and not allowing them to access content that others, on other servers have played and payed less for is wrong...especially when at the end of the day. House Plot 1, Ward 1 on all wards is the SAME THING.

Stop believing 'legacy markets are inflated' 'Legacy players are loaded' We're most simply nothing of the sort. When our gil was redominated...90% of all 1.0 weath was erased.

It's doable, at least on my server. My company of ten people has, since the 17th, made 1.6 million gil on top of what we've saved previously.

But it's getting harder.

I craft random things to sell so I don't flood the market. Every day I check my retainers, only a few things have sold. Every day I have to drop my prices 500 gil, 1000 gil, even in more than one case 100,000 gil because people keep undercutting so bad hoping for ANY sort of profit, it becomes more and more difficult.

10 people, 10 days. Only a million gil. It's going to be a while.

We just need a few more ways to make gil outside the market board.

If you FC has 200 active players and they all submitted 1 million Gil each, you still couldn't buy a large house. Insane.

What worries me more is the individual housing system.

First of all I don’t trust them anymore, what they say today 90% of the time will change after a month, like what happened when they said 2-3 people leveling 3 classes to 50 could buy a house.
So will they do the same to individual houses? Who knows?

Second thing, the sizes of the houses, the small FC house could not fit 3 persons with 1 table in it, how could it fir 20 players?

The sizes right now should be for individual players and the FC houses should be 10 times bigger than what they are now.

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Originally Posted by Miyenne

Every day I have to drop my prices 500 gil, 1000 gil, even in more than one case 100,000 gil because people keep undercutting so bad hoping for ANY sort of profit, it becomes more and more difficult.

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Call it "undercutting" if you want, but the market is just doing what it always does. The big change is that people are more aware of the value of gil. They are buying less at high prices (300 gil for a single BTN20 lemon?, for example) and gathering/crafting/farming more. Now there are also more sellers and their costs in gil are almost zero. Content gives away items and now, instead of discarding or NPCing, they're selling it on the market and any price is a profit.

More sellers equals rising supply. More frugal, self-sufficent buyers equals falling demand. That's what traditionally pushing prices down. At some point buying will rebound once prices are in line with perceived value of gil (like, same example, 20 gil for a lemon). It was a seller's market early on, while most people consumed combat content and got free gil. That's gone now, until the next new things where only a few have knowledge or ability to make something and the many have a great desire to buy it.

TL;DR: see bold text, above.

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Originally Posted by ArkhamNative

Call it "undercutting" if you want, but the market is just doing what it always does. The big change is that people are more aware of the value of gil.

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Yeah, most of complaint I read on AH prices are basically like saying: "Why did SE make so hard to strip ignorants from their money?".
I managed to gather around two millions in three months out of that, but the rest of my FC were the ones stripped, not the ones stripping (they now have around 300k each).
What really troubles me is that even with me being able to do so and gather so much - and then "playing dirty" on the market - it's still impossible for my FC to afford even the small sized house. And when the price in my Group will be halved, I will still have to cover for around 50% of the price with just my cut (and I won't!).

However, it's wrong to complaint about free market going nuts and prices lowering. It's a natural evolution.
What people should complaint instead, are the lack of ways to make good and honest money, via LeveQuest or Istances for example.

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Originally Posted by ArkhamNative

The big change is that people are more aware of the value of gil.

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Except now you're seeing that the value of gil that they just realized requires everyone to hold on to it as much as possible. This is the exact same behavior seen in real world economics during recessions and depressions. People are holding on to every cent they can, produced goods are plummeting in value to entice buyers, and the alternative source of income (here quests and such) has become so laughably small that it's becoming difficult for people to gather the required gil.

If this were the real world, you'd see more people "laid off" resulting in a massive rebounding of inflated prices causing goods to be unsellable. Thankfully, FFXIV has unlimited resources based on simply getting the resources and crafting. That's causing the flooding of the market of goods that just keep devaluing as fewer people buy what more people produce.

Simply put, in one quick move, Yoshi-P made people realize that gil is valuable AND that they need to hoard it in such large values that it's actually crashing the market in a Great Depression scale as most people withdraw their money from the market causing the items to devalue very quickly in hopes of moving ANY money.

People are aware of the value of gil, so they're not going to let go of it making the markets oversaturate and devaluate.

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Originally Posted by cainejw

Simply put, in one quick move, Yoshi-P made people realize that gil is valuable AND that they need to hoard it in such large values that it's actually crashing the market in a Great Depression scale as most people withdraw their money from the market causing the items to devalue very quickly in hopes of moving ANY money.

People are aware of the value of gil, so they're not going to let go of it making the markets oversaturate and devaluate.

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This is exactly what I'm doing. I'm not spending a penny in hopes Yoshi will come to his senses and REALLY fix the housing market. He has completely lost it on this one. I have no idea what he was thinking. What a train-wreck.