Main Scenario Restriction Bloodstorm - Very Very Bad idea.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Yet XI still allowed people to start separate expansion content regardless if they had did the previous or not....And that can't be done here?

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This is one of those times when you can't compare this game to XI. You know... XI, that game that is famous for its sideways progression around here, of course you will be able to go sideways into an expansion at some points. XIV on the other hand is entirely vertical progression, so some sort of climbing will naturally be necessary, and taking that away only inflicts limitations in this particular case (something that XIs core design did not have to deal with).

Also XI did require some level of completion at certain points for story reasons.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why. Why does it matter to you what other people do? That has been my only argument-- one you have continuously failed to address.

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And I've given you my reasons. You choose to ignore them... continuously.

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Are people expected to then slog through even more content they may not be interested in; that is upwards of nearly a decade old?

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A decade old? We're just now coming up on the 2nd expansion, and you're treating FFXIV like it is a dying game. Please share the crystal ball you're gazing at. They haven't even clarified that 4.0 will be the same as 3.0. It's still months away.

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Thousands have also quit.

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And you can prove that it was all new players faced with a "daunting" story?

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I've repeatedly cited WoW-- specially asking if the same number of people would have purchased Legion if they were told "by the way, you have fifteen years worth of old content to go before we let you play Legion."

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I never played WoW. I played FFXI though, and it NEVER got a jumping potion. They made it easier to progress, but never tossed a pay-to-win item out there to jump to level 99. It might be a dwindling game, but it is also the best reference for another FF game. FFXIV might take some aspects from WoW, but it is still a FF game at it's core. FF games are held to a higher standard with their story-driven narratives. Something I, along with many others, appreciate, and one the developers have tried to honor.

Let's revisit this topic in 15 years, and I'll see how I feel about the jumping potion then.

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MMOs do not function the same as games in other genres. Unlike any other Final Fantasy, FFXIV's quest number will only become larger as the years trickle by. It's the equivalent of say, BioWare forcing people to have completed save file of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 before they can play Mass Effect 3.

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And FFXI was no different. Maybe you didn't have to experience the entire story, but it still kept adding quests as it grew. Still... people played it all from day one. Comparing an MMORPG to a SPRPG is moot. So is equating an expansion to DLC, or a sequel. The simple fact is that an expansion is neither. It is an addition to the existing core game.

Some companies handle it differently than others, and I can accept that. But this game does not, and should not have to fall in line with every MMORPG out on the market. It is still being ranked as the 2nd best MMORPG out there, despite your "sinking ship" scenario. Clearly it is doing something right.

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Some people want to treat each expansion like a brand new game.

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And I would fault them for that. It is not a brand new game. Neither were the multiple expansions to FFXI. They added more story, but did not change the game into a new IP.

Legion is not considered a new game. You have said it yourself, I believe, that it has 15 years of lore behind it. Where did all that lore come from? Not Legion itself. It came from the 15 years prior to it. (Also, wasn't WoW released in 2004?)

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Yes, I'm aware. I do not care. If they want to throw several hundred dollars to level jobs. Go right ahead. It doesn't impact me or how I play.

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So you're alright with them throwing several hundred dollars at gil as well?

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All the Chinese version does is essentially treat the current expansion (Heavensward) like its the base game.

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The Chinese market, and demand on games is vastly different from our own. Not to mention, again, that this is not a new game, and should not be treated as such.

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The fact you don't actually win anything? You placed at the very beginning of Heavensward in baby gear. You just don't have to do A Realm Reborn. That is literally all you get since everything else means nothing. There is no precedent to set because this jump potion only serves that one purpose.

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You won every single dungeon and fight from level 1-50. You won the privilege of entering Ishgard without a struggle. You won the so-called "baby gear" that is normally farmed, or obtained in other ways. And if we're talking about doing this at the release of Stormblood, you won the privilege of advancing to new content without lifting a finger. (Except the one used to type in your CC information.) And that's all you get...

Why not just sell a potion that unlocks everything? So they can pick and choose the content they want to play. After all, it is their money. Nevermind the thousands/millions paying for the same game, and having to deal with the influx of these day one savants. Who I'm sure watched every video, and read every guide to play to the best of their ability. I mean, it's not like they're lazy and skip content... oh wait!

If they add a jumping potion, I'd like it to come with a few conditions. I'd like that player to have a title that cannot be changed, and an obnoxious symbol by their name. Like a coin, or a dollar sign to carry with them throughout the entire game. I'd like it to be perfectly obvious who these people are, for two reasons.

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

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Originally Posted by TarynH

If they add a jumping potion, I'd like it to come with a few conditions. I'd like that player to have a title that cannot be changed, and an obnoxious symbol by their name. Like a coin, or a dollar sign to carry with them throughout the entire game. I'd like it to be perfectly obvious who these people are, for two reasons.

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

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Also so that I know which players never learned how to play the game and bought their way to endgame, so I can avoid having them in my PF. Jumping potions make sense in WoW, as every new race and class requires the player to essentially start the game again, but in this game you can get your new job on your already existing character, no need for alts.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Yet XI still allowed people to start separate expansion content regardless if they had did the previous or not....

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Rhapsodies Of Vana'Diel would like to have a word with you...
You couldn't play ZM without having done the City rank 5. And allowing CoP without ZM is stupid, since it's a direct sequel.

ToAU, WotG and SoA were three unrelated stories, so it made sense...but it still requires max level to do them, so a new player have absolutely no means of jumping right into them.
If they decide to create an expansion where you can start at level one, then yes, gating it behind previous expansions would be stupid.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

MMOs do not function the same as games in other genres. Unlike any other Final Fantasy, FFXIV's quest number will only become larger as the years trickle by. It's the equivalent of say, BioWare forcing people to have completed save file of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 before they can play Mass Effect 3.

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"Wah wah, I can't acces act V in Lords Of Destruction without clearing act IV of Diablo II"
"Wah wah, I can't acces act V in Reaper Of Souls without clearing act IV of Diablo III"

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Originally Posted by TarynH

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

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Yep! Bc I'd be one of them ppl saying sry but pass! ^^

The ability to just skip over a massive amount of content like this isn't just a bad idea, it's a real disservice. To everyone involved.

I'm a returning player and I've been back from few weeks. I had left back in 2014, when Bahamut T5 was the highest content available.
Since I had 100 leves available, I planned to start playing again by using them to my level 50 DoH classes doing Heavensward levequests. Sadly I realized than having purchased Heavensward did not add a geographical open path to reach the new areas.
I was a bit unhappy about that, because while I did not expect at all to access dungeons or quests related to Heavensward story, I assumed I would still be able to wander around the new landscape and do things such as levelquests, gathering, crafting...

So I focused on catching back on the main story quest lines and all is fine now, and while they were many, each quest is kind of short so it is fast enough. But doing that I noticed the quest reward were giving me out so far iLevel 110, 115, 125 equipments but no weapons at all (Why no weapon?). Back then it would take me weeks to gather such equipment set, but of course compared to nowadays iLvl 260, I guess it was a minimum to start catching back on new contents, so I assume they added these easy reward so late comers can a have a decent base equipment to begin Heavensward without having to grind for a long time.

So I don't mind expansion locked behind the main story as long as the old content is made easier/quicker so you're not locked or lag behind where most of the current activity is for too long. I also like the new Undersize party thing. It helps when catching back on the main quest, so I can ask a high level friend to come clear quickly a Duty I need to pass to continue the main quest without worrying about queuing or wipes. (I will have plenty of opportunity to play the Duty normally with the Roullette later :p)

About players who would prefer some sort of pass to directly reach to a level designed for the last expansion, as well as considering having already clear all the previous main quest content. I don't mind, as long as it would only provide the basic requirements to not undermine the value of regular players such as:

- Choose one unique DoW class to be automatically leveled to XX level ( example: 50 for Heavensward, 60 for Stormblood)
- Be provided with a basic set of equipment matching the expension ilevel entrypoint.
- No achievements for the automatically cleared story content.

It could be some purchasable deluxe option from the mogstation for those who really wants to directly access the latest released content.
In such condition it's not like it would not affect the other regular player experiences, and better to have a new active player than someone who won't play at all if he has to start from Level 1 in ARR.

PS: Leveling character from 1 to 60 does not teach you how to play it properly in team because you can mostly level solo with just Fates and quests. Only playing in multiplayer Duty will practically do so. So it does not really matter at which level a player starts in the game, it's just a question of attitude. I'm sure you can currently meet awesome or horrible level 60 player in Duties, regardless to the fact they all started at level 1 :p

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

You're talking about direct gear advance and I'm talking about money which can be put towards direct gear advancement. Item for glamour and even normal mats can be acquired passively by these retainers so I do not see how you think that is "balanced."

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And I ask you to find me a retainer that can gather i270 gear, or materials to craft i250 gear. They don't directly help you advance. They can save you time, yes. They can get you gil, yes. You can use that gil to purchase i250 gear, yes. But they cannot directly provide you the ability to beat content. You are not "winning" raid or dungeon content because they got you materials.

Gathering large sums of money hardly advances your character in any meaningful way. Can you pay someone to carry you through content? Of course. Anyone can do that. Can those extra retainers help you gain money for that? Of course. Yet, I would still not consider this pay-to-win. You are paying for the retainers, but you are also using the means within the game itself to do these things. Not to mention you are using your time to invest in those retainers.

What you are not doing, is paying for an item to be delivered to your inbox, and using it to skip ahead. You are also not paying for the gil earned by retainers directly. They are still being used within the boundaries of the game.

But, I'd like to ask you a question. Did/do you consider mules on FFXI to be pay-to-win? Ones that someone leveled an alt. craft on to make gil?

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The fact remains that the person who reaches the end first sets the standard until the market becomes oversaturated and then they are forced onto something else. That's fine if everyone is given the same tools. But its not fine if you can get extra tools outside of the confines you are working in and compete with others.

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I'm all for making retainers free. Maybe when they upgrade their servers, they'll look into it. Unfortunately, I see it as everyone having the opportunity currently to acquire those "extra tools."

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Rhapsodies Of Vana'Diel would like to have a word with you...
You couldn't play ZM without having done the City rank 5. And allowing CoP without ZM is stupid, since it's a direct sequel.

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Rhapsodies of Vana'diel was also a free update and did not come out with any new Jobs. With the exception of Reisenjima, every 'new' zone was a reskin of an already existing zone.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

And I've given you my reasons. You choose to ignore them... continuously.

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No. I've disagreed with them. There is a difference.

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A decade old? We're just now coming up on the 2nd expansion, and you're treating FFXIV like it is a dying game. Please share the crystal ball you're gazing at. They haven't even clarified that 4.0 will be the same as 3.0. It's still months away.

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Sigh. You are yet again mischaracterizing what I said. What I specifically outlined is that if this trend continues, the content bloat will only become larger and that it will deter newer players who will instead opt for gears where they aren't gated by hundreds of quests they have no interest in. There is no "crystal ball" here. Publishers have outright acknowledged this as a concern, and many very few sequels in any genre are made where you're required to go through its previous iteration. In fact, FFXIV is the only MMO currently on the market that gates content in this manner.

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And you can prove that it was all new players faced with a "daunting" story?

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Never said they did. You just cited player numbers that far exceeded what has been analyzed. What we do know is among primary complaints on forums is the lack of accessibility.

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I never played WoW. I played FFXI though, and it NEVER got a jumping potion. They made it easier to progress, but never tossed a pay-to-win item out there to jump to level 99. It might be a dwindling game, but it is also the best reference for another FF game. FFXIV might take some aspects from WoW, but it is still a FF game at it's core. FF games are held to a higher standard with their story-driven narratives. Something I, along with many others, appreciate, and one the developers have tried to honor.

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FFXI does not gate content behind its story. You are free to explore or participate in its equivalent of raids at your leisure. People who support a jump potion (or have an indifference to its implementation) generally want it because of the aforementioned inaccessibility. Not for leveling, as that doesn't get you anywhere in FFXIV.

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And FFXI was no different. Maybe you didn't have to experience the entire story, but it still kept adding quests as it grew. Still... people played it all from day one. Comparing an MMORPG to a SPRPG is moot. So is equating an expansion to DLC, or a sequel. The simple fact is that an expansion is neither. It is an addition to the existing core game.

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Except I didn't. I merely applied your insistence players should play the game "as intended" to another game. A direction comparison in the same genre would be WoW. Funny enough, they don't seem to have any of the issues you've insisted would plague FFXIV.

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Some companies handle it differently than others, and I can accept that. But this game does not, and should not have to fall in line with every MMORPG out on the market. It is still being ranked as the 2nd best MMORPG out there, despite your "sinking ship" scenario. Clearly it is doing something right.

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Based on... your opinion? And I never said now, but in the future. You cannot expect new players to continuously flock to a game where an ever growing mountain awaits them. If you are so gung ho against a jump potion now. What chances in the next expansion?

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And I would fault them for that. It is not a brand new game. Neither were the multiple expansions to FFXI. They added more story, but did not change the game into a new IP.

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Too bad. Why do you get to decide how they should feel or view this game or its expansions? Once again, FFXI is a non-equivalent because it didn't prevent you from exploring content at your leisure.

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Legion is not considered a new game. You have said it yourself, I believe, that it has 15 years of lore behind it. Where did all that lore come from? Not Legion itself. It came from the 15 years prior to it. (Also, wasn't WoW released in 2004?)

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And yet I could buy Legion right now and start playing it immediately. All that lore, I can completely ignore if I so choose. Therefore, I can treat Legion like a standalone game because it allows me the choice of playing its content at my personally discretion.

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So you're alright with them throwing several hundred dollars at gil as well?

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Buying gil and skipping A Realm Reborn are not the same thing.

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You won every single dungeon and fight from level 1-50. You won the privilege of entering Ishgard without a struggle. You won the so-called "baby gear" that is normally farmed, or obtained in other ways. And if we're talking about doing this at the release of Stormblood, you won the privilege of advancing to new content without lifting a finger. (Except the one used to type in your CC information.) And that's all you get...

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No, you don't actually. Even in the Chinese version, you do not earn achievements. It's literally like you... just skipped A Realm Reborn. And you mean that baby gear the game hands to you for free? Once upon a time, people had to earn the ilvl 90 set. I got it gifted to me without lifting a finger. I suppose that's pay to win too, right? After all, you had to work for it. I didn't.

None of that is winning. Funny enough, I wager most people who would actually purchase a jump potion wouldn't even mind being forced to run all the dungeons/trials. That isn't what those people tend to complain about. It's the story they're forced to skip when it doesn't appealing to them.

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Why not just sell a potion that unlocks everything? So they can pick and choose the content they want to play. After all, it is their money. Nevermind the thousands/millions paying for the same game, and having to deal with the influx of these day one savants. Who I'm sure watched every video, and read every guide to play to the best of their ability. I mean, it's not like they're lazy and skip content... oh wait!

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Because they aren't synonymous. Allowing someone to skip a bunch of fetch quests and joke dungeons they'll otherwise have a friend unsync them through doesn't impact anything. It just makes what they're already doing faster. Some would, others wouldn't. Kind of like how it is now. Some have mentor status yet have no idea how to properly play their job. Just because someone wants to skip story doesn't mean they aren't interested in the gameplay. Fun fact, a lot of people-- even current subs -- find 1-40 leveling a mindless bore. There's a reason even fans of the game tend to say "it gets so much better at level 50!"

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If they add a jumping potion, I'd like it to come with a few conditions. I'd like that player to have a title that cannot be changed, and an obnoxious symbol by their name. Like a coin, or a dollar sign to carry with them throughout the entire game. I'd like it to be perfectly obvious who these people are, for two reasons.

1. So we know precisely the number of people who "needed" this leg up. (So this conversation never happens again.)
2. So people can decide whether or not they wish to associate with these people.

Sounds fair right?

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Actually, it sounds like you're being increasingly judgmental because they chose to skip the story and you just want to shame them for it. No different than me calling out a healer for refusing to DPS, a tank who pulls small or a DPS who doesn't use their aoes. All of them are playing in a way I dislike, therefore I should get to shame them. Except in that scenario, I'd be a jerk.

Good players generally don't care how you got to max level. They just want you to be good at the game.