I thought the whole interview was trash really. Wouldn't surprise me if player feedback is considered but ultimately ignored. I've found when it comes to Japaenese developers and they accept player feedback they usually pay more attention to feedback from their own region. In this case Japanese player feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
It's one thing to admit mistakes. It's another thing to actually fix the problem. Step 1 on the road to fixing a problem is admitting a problem but it will change nothing if they intentionally make the same mistakes over and over again. To the point the mistakes are clearly intentional.
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01-15-2016, 01:30 AMMagiusNecros
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01-15-2016, 01:51 AMVelhart
It is pretty obvious that SE is oblivious when it comes to understanding proper end game structure. They look at numbers and charts and assume the direction should be based off that. "We saw a lot of people did Easy Mode Alexander." Of course they did, it was easy content at a borderline insulting level with what had the best gear until Esoteric/Savage. You were basically handing candy to people on a silver platter, of course lots of people are going to go in and grab it.
SE should be focusing on trying to get less experienced people into challenging content, and then try to get people into really hard content after that. Not release an easy mode so you don't have to put the effort end game.
Ohh look at me, I have become a broken record. -
01-15-2016, 02:09 AMAlahraTo suggest that the SE ignore "numbers and charts" in constructing the endgame seems pretty weird to me: content clear rates and player engagement with content are one of the best metrics they have to gauge whether a particular type of content is successful (or not, as has been the case with Alexander Savage). How else are they supposed to gauge whether or not something is working or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
They did a lot of that in ARR—a lot of the game's content structure is organized in such a way as to lower the barriers for entry for the hardest content. That's part of why the original HM Primals were required to unlock Coil, and why mid-range weapons drop from current EX Primals. It's why Tomestone gear is no longer immediately at the highest item level (as it was for Myth gear at i90) (Yoshi came right out and said they did this because it encouraged people to skip raiding).Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
Quite frankly I'm not sure what else they could do to get people interested in challenging stuff. Those that want a challenge will seek it, and those that don't, won't, and the latter group consists of a larger portion of the player base than the former. -
01-15-2016, 02:17 AMSardonia
I am not exactly sure what gamers want these days. It seems people want so many different things and they all conflict which each other in some way or form.
1. People as for interesting stats on gear: This is a two edge sword. Even though it would be interesting and neat, it can also play horribly. People would find out what equipment is the best and if you do not have it good luck with getting into some what challenging or challenging content.
2. People asking for equipment to last longer and be more relevant. I kind of agree and disagree. Players would rush to get the equipment and say no there is nothing left to do and say they are bored for a much longer time then what we have now.
3. Players believe Heavensward is a rehash of 2.0. Yes it is technically but with new areas, new classes, etc, etc. Not sure what players were thinking this was going to change. An expansion is what it is, an addition to the core game and not an entirely new game.
I believe the developers do listen and take in account feedback given, however, again that feed back is all across the board and they have to piece together what they think the majority of players actually want which is no easy task.
I for one am happy with the game currently. I enjoy it and I have a relaxing time playing it after a long day at work. I set my own goals and do not need them to create a carrot for me. Currently I am gathering a lot to increase my gil stash. I managed to snag a house a couple days after Christmas where a small house in the mists opened up magically and I managed to grab it. Now I am working on gathering enough gil to perhaps upgrade to a medium or even large when new housing comes out.
Last comment is I believe PS3 is holding this game back some do to limitations it has. Once that support is dropped I think additional things can and will be done. -
01-15-2016, 02:30 AMKaurieIn my opinion, they've done a pretty horrible job of interpreting those numbers though. They've shown they have the numbers and it's great they even share some of that with us, but when they go on to draw conclusions it leaves me scratching my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
The issue is that they have made a lot of content very easy, and content very hard with very little in between. There isn't a gradual progression that really should be present in a vertical progression game. One should be going from 1->2->3->4->5->6, instead we have 1->2->2->3->1->2->2->2->8->10Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
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01-15-2016, 02:38 AMRiceisNiceThey might have the numbers, but they don't necessarily take the context behind it. They said they considered Alexander normal to be a "success" because of the clear rates (or at the very least, Yoshi-p is extremely satisified by it and they won't drop the model). But why is it a success? Why is the clear rate so high? Would they consider 3.1's MSQ to be a success with it's current clear rates?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
I personally would have preferred normal mode to be akin to FCoB because that's something that allows for a natural nerf to it with echo to open it up to the "non-challenge seekers", along side with the numerous other content (debatable if it's good or not, which is a different discussion) that they already have. With the setup we have now, you have pepole that don't care for a challenge, the people that want to raid, and the people that want to hardcore raid. A good chunk of the playerbase is in the middle as well, but the current set up of the content does not cater to that with how tuned savage is.
This would have been the ideal setup. The barriers eventually get tuned down in the form of progressive gearing (espesically in a vertical progression), and there's no need to pre-emptively plan for content that opens up to players that do not have a interest in raiding or commitment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
Look at the other perspective, the people that want to do things like raid only have savage mode to look toward. It's tune up so high that even ilvl supplementation doesn't help, and you don't nessescarly want to nerf savage mode if it's intent is that it's supposed to be hard. They're seeking a challenge, but it's not nessescarly the challenge they want, but this only became evident (and in large strides no less) with Alexander Savage in comparison to FCoB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
People already min/max in accordance to the substats which have very small influence on actual gameplay. On top of that, players had already excluded certain jobs or players whom have not cleared the content from doing content. Player (ir)responsibility should not be a reason to not implement something, honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardonia
Again, people already do this in regards to anima. I personally have been burned out and bored long before anima came, but at the same time, I have not cleared A4s to fully slot my main. We've actually been on A3s for months now, and while its technically "something to do", it doesn't change the fact that the burnout still occurs for other reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardonia
The problem comes is that it delivered very little in regards to what an expansion is supposed to do, as well as the groundwork it lays out. No one is asking for an entirely new game, that's why they got the expansion for FFXIV to continue playing FFXIV. However, the rehashes has gotten noticably worse due to how long it takes inbetween each patch (the delay between 3.0 and 3.1. the delay of the anima quest). In a sense, it's "rehashing, but they're doing it worse" and the fact that they're continuing it for such a long period of time. Try to look at it from their perspective to why they feel it's a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardonia
For me, the new job, specifically MCH feels like a reskinned BRD at times, and some jobs feel largely unchanged, if not regressed in their road to 60. We're getting one less dungeon per patch cycle so it feels even more repetitive when we do roulette, Alexander does not do much different in regards to presentation from normal to savage mode (see normal/hard and EX primals for example). -
01-15-2016, 02:48 AMVelhartIts not to say they shouldn't get some ideas based off data, at the same time, you shouldn't come to a conclusion based off of it. SE really should study end game in other MMO's and how they make them work and appealing to get some inspiration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
Its funny, because the start of ARR they structured most things very nicely. They put those barriers up to work you into raiding like the HM primals. It definitely helped teams get a feeling of how the structure of the game works before going into raids. It worked you into it. That was a good mix of midcore/hardcore end game. It is a shame that Bismark nor Ravana were used for that purpose.Quote:
They did a lot of that in ARR—a lot of the game's content structure is organized in such a way as to lower the barriers for entry for the hardest content. That's part of why the original HM Primals were required to unlock Coil, and why mid-range weapons drop from current EX Primals. It's why Tomestone gear is no longer immediately at the highest item level (as it was for Myth gear at i90) (Yoshi came right out and said they did this because it encouraged people to skip raiding).
Quite frankly I'm not sure what else they could do to get people interested in challenging stuff. Those that want a challenge will seek it, and those that don't, won't, and the latter group consists of a larger portion of the player base than the former.
Midcore/Hardcore content shouldn't take a hit because some people don't have the time or not good enough to play it. Most people never even see Heroic raids in WoW and you don't see Blizzard pulling it's plug because of it. There needs to be that goal that feels unreachable, its what drives people to continue. Nope, just dumb it down till people who are not willing to learn how to play is satisfied.
Yoshi-P's comment on "I want people to say 'ohh that really wasn't that bad'" is a terrible way to look at making your content. There needs an extreme amount of satisfaction beating content. Able to triumph over something that most cannot accomplish. That is what I was hoping Normal > Savage would be. Normal being Final Coil level and what Yoshi-P says about "ohh it wasn't that bad" and Savage testing out the best the server has to offer in players. Seriously, most MMO's do this, I really wonder why FFXIV developers are so against it. Sure different mind sets and beliefs, but its pretty clear that FFXIV is western MMO influenced.
Again, I don't think SE knows how to work out end game balance anymore. A lot of once hardcore end game players see this and a lot have jumped ship to other MMO's already. FFXIV won't die out because of it, but their raiding scene is definitely going to be considered a joke if they keep going in the mind set they are in.
Someone really needs to slap my hand whenever I decide to make another end game rant. -
01-15-2016, 03:08 AMAlahraDon't get me wrong, I think Savage is stupid, and I think the gap between NM and Savage is FAR too wide, and I also think they've done a poor job over the last year or two of developing mid-core content. I think a lot of the issue, though, is that SE has (at least up until this point) not really considered "mid-core content" a thing they should actually be concerned with.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Their error has largely been in assuming that there are two player types when it comes to player engagement with difficult content (non-raider vs. raider), but there are actually three, with "raiders" being split into raider and hardcore raider as you mentioned.
From their comments regarding Titan EX and EX primals in general, I think they were actually very disappointed with the clear rates for that content. They seem to have actually expected a lot more of the playerbase to use them as a gateway into Coil (which is how they worked for me, actually—I was never a raider before this game), but they took the lesson from them that a majority of the playerbase doesn't want content that hard. That has always greatly disappointed me and I've pretty much ignored EX primals ever since Leviathan because the reward to effort ratio just doesn't feel satisfying to me—they're just hard enough that getting stop-gap gear just doesn't feel rewarding for them. -
01-15-2016, 03:15 AMKaurieHonestly, I think this is the issue. They want to classify people in to these big groups, but there isn't really a large category that people belong to. It's much more of a scale. Not every non-raider is on equal footing, not every raider is on equal-footing. They need content to match this scaling mentality, where things naturally progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
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01-15-2016, 03:17 AMSardonia
Honestly the easiest solution would be to obtain gear the way you want to.
Run dungeons for tombs for gear.
Run normal mode raid for tokens for same gear.
Run EX primals for tokens for same gear.
Do stuff in the open world for tokens for same gear.
Do Savage raid for a little better gear then the rest.
This would at least let everyone choose how they would want to gear their characters and let you do a little bit of everything if you wanted. It would also help with not getting a variety of upgraded gear each cycle.
To the poster that responded to me above. I would agree with you that they did not do a good job with MCH or BRD. I play Bard and do not like WM. I can play with it but I just do not like it. However, there are many that do like it so again who do you listen to when looking at feedback?