Revelations from Patch 5.3

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Ehil Tou Custom Delivery

Apparently dragons change form due to external and internal factors, and their shapes can vary due to that same reason. Ehil Tou looks very unique as a dragon because of that, and makes you wonder if a full on humanoid dragon is possible.

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10 Char Must Be Purged.

That is a good question. We do know that there are humanoid dragons in the form of Ishgardians partaking in dragon blood. However this is more along the line of half dragons in that sense. However, we don't have a known case of a dragon taking these forms from external factors similar to what's described.

I wonder the dragons would ever be willing to support Ishgard's military operations.

I could definitely see it happening if a potentially world-ending threat comes up as a result of the scheming in Garlemald since Midgarsormr would likely intervene.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Actually, yeah. I was seeing the Xande parallel as "going to great lengths to extend his lifespan in the face of an inevitable end," with "acceptance" as the most probable resolution to his arc with what little we had to go on (see also, Kuja), but he ended up crossing the Minwu threshold into anti-nihilism and then everything went really off the rails. But the way he "sacrificed" himself (in 2.5), went unremarked on for most of the story's runtime (until late 4.X), and then returned dramatically to save us is definitely the crowning Desch moment people (mostly JP) believed he was being set up for.

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It seems strange to me if, as you said in your older linked post, people weren't seeing the parallel between G'raha and Desch. I can't have a neutral view on it since I went into FFIII already having read that it was the case, but the progression is clear from "trying to remember something important" to remembering he has a direct link to the ancient race that constructed the tower, and then sacrificing himself in some way.

I still don't see the parallel between the Exarch and Xande, beyond perhaps a tentative one in the very early days of speculation when all we knew was it's him! - if anything, it's a contrast. While both made some kind of effort to prolong their life, it was for utterly different reasons: Xande is fearful of his own death and will do anything to prevent it; the Exarch is acting on a need to survive so he can protect the lives of others.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

But now that you've met FFIII Desch, I think you can agree it's fitting that his "Salina" is actually the Warrior of Light (though I guess that's an ending spoiler kinda). I was admittedly worried they would lean too hard into the source material again and award that role to the literal, 2000-years-ago Salina (in a bid to stabilize the time loop).

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I think there's some character amalgamation going on in the FFXIV version of the story. "Princess Salina" seems to be FFIII Salina only in her relationship to Desch, and otherwise seems more likely to equate to Princess Sara - in fact, having met her first, I assumed that she probably was Salina and the name had been localised differently between games.

Anyway, for XIV it's definitely an equivalent having Raha reunited with [the person he cares about], rather than Salina specifically.

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On a related note regarding FFXIV's Salina and Desch, my mind keeps going to the odd revelations we got from Heaven-on-High (particularly the follow-up quest), seeing as it name-dropped them again and now the larger CT plot has become so central to the game's story.

The Onishishu "seek the lost knowledge of the Allagans, that it may benefit the peoples of the modern world". Their founder knew Salina and Desch. The recorded conversation at the Pine - still overly cryptic - touches on the same themes that ring through Shadowbringers and was surely written in combination with it.

I can't see them forcing us to do Heaven-on-High for MSQ purposes but I could see the Onishishu returning for some future plot point that builds on the idea.

When I last played through HoH either shortly before or after 5.0, I thought at the time that if CT hadn't happened, G'raha probably would have been an excellent candidate for them to recruit, simply based on his expertise regarding Allag. And now... assuming they are keeping tabs on the WoL's activities then they might be very interested now.

Maybe G'raha is already a member. Or maybe Rammbroes is.

I wonder if they have ties to Sharlayan...?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On a related note regarding FFXIV's Salina and Desch, my mind keeps going to the odd revelations we got from Heaven-on-High (particularly the follow-up quest), seeing as it name-dropped them again and now the larger CT plot has become so central to the game's story.

The Onishishu "seek the lost knowledge of the Allagans, that it may benefit the peoples of the modern world". Their founder knew Salina and Desch. The recorded conversation at the Pine - still overly cryptic - touches on the same themes that ring through Shadowbringers and was surely written in combination with it.

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Ugh, FFXIV Salina. At this point, I think anything involving her can only be read in the broadest sense as "she knew Calamities were a cyclical occurrence." So, she figured the Crystal Tower could be a sort of insurance policy. And yet, every time she's mentioned, I get this nagging feeling like there was some specific future disaster she was trying to prevent, and not just the stuff we took care of during the 24-man series.

Though it seems now like whatever version of Salina was in G'raha's head back in 2.5 (I guess just a secondhand remembrance?) is a long abandoned plot point they don't intend to do anything with. With everything Hydaelyn has put us through, they really shouldn't have framed it like an Echo vision...

About Fandaniel...

I am curious what he will do now that his chains are no more. He already shown signs that he is most likely just destory the world rather than unsunder it.

The phrase about a beast can easily be reflected on to both Zenos and Fandaniel due to their nature. In Fandaniel case he is naturally insane to a point he is like a mindless beast himself that seeks to destroy everything.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

and makes you wonder if a full on humanoid dragon is possible.[/hb]

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Yes, it is very likely, in fact. Final Coil of Bahamut Turn Four features dragons called Pain of Meracydia. These dragons look just like the larger variety of humans-transformed-into-dragons from the Heretics - but Meracydia predates the Dragonsong War by millenia, so these are likely just dragons that assumed a humanoid shape as they grew. These COULD be humans-turned-dragon, as well (maybe they used the eyes from Bahamut's corpse to imbue humans with the ability to transform, just as happened with Ratatoskr later on), but it seems unlikely.

If that's not humanoid enough for you, and you're wondering whether a dragon's path of growth could give them a shape that's indistinguishable from a human - that's unclear, but I suppose it might be possible.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

About Fandaniel...

I am curious what he will do now that his chains are no more. He already shown signs that he is most likely just destory the world rather than unsunder it.

The phrase about a beast can easily be reflected on to both Zenos and Fandaniel due to their nature. In Fandaniel case he is naturally insane to a point he is like a mindless beast himself that seeks to destroy everything.

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I've thought similar things myself.

That kind of thing, at this point we knew that the Unsundered restored partial memories of the Sundered Ascians and the Unsundered wanted to restore the star which involved the painstaking process of the rejoining and calamity process. However, as fractured being, the ability to the Sundered to fully understand the reasons for the tedious process is unlikely given the rather roundabout way their office is restored. It very possible there are other means to complete the Ascian's goal, but they put the Star at such excessive risk that the Unsundered would never allow it. We saw back in Realm Reborn that Nabriales also tried to bypass the process to take direct action and the disapproval from the Unsundered about it. By removing the Unsundered, it may be possible we've had made the Sundered Ascians even more dangerous.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Ehil Tou Custom Delivery

Apparently dragons change form due to external and internal factors, and their shapes can vary due to that same reason. Ehil Tou looks very unique as a dragon because of that, and makes you wonder if a full on humanoid dragon is possible.

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The dragons seem like they are evolution incarnation at times. It seems like they have the ability to adapt to new environments on the fly and they're changes throughout their live based on those changes in environment compare to how Evolution works in the real world over thousands of generations. So I would image if changing their appearance to live among the humanoid races was beneficial to their surrounding environment I would image it's quite plausible.

Say if Crafting or using tools became beneficial to them, the ability to adapt forms more suitable in using said tools by forming limbs more capable of utilizing them which seems like it's kind of the idea here.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I wonder the dragons would ever be willing to support Ishgard's military operations.

I could definitely see it happening if a potentially world-ending threat comes up as a result of the scheming in Garlemald since Midgarsormr would likely intervene.

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Though I could see it in a severe situation like Midgardsormr intervention in the Battle of Silver Tears for the most part I'd guess they would still not get involved in the wars between the humanoid races much. The dragons were kind of isolationist even before the Dragonsong War and were relatively uninterested in political or military affairs. Even Nidhogg's horde wasn't exactly a traditional military, just kind of a bunch of very powerful and very angry reptiles.

I imagine something like a large-scale voidsent incursion might get the dragons to get pro-active.

Because voidsent armageddon is not something you can easily isolate yourself and hide from, so fighting pretty much becomes unavoidable at that point if you don't want to get gobbled. They'd be forced to fight to avoid being eaten by the demonic hordes. There'd be no hiding and waiting it out like they usually do when large-scale disasters occur, because this disaster will actively follow and hunt them down.

And with everyone else being in the same situation...

If you want to a joint Spoken/Dragon war effort, that should do the trick.

As for how such a situation would come about...blame Fandaniel and/or Zenos. If anyone would have both the means to cause such a thing and the willingness to actually do it, it would be them. Xande doesn't count because he's already been dealt with.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

I imagine something like a large-scale voidsent incursion might get the dragons to get pro-active.

Because voidsent armageddon is not something you can easily isolate yourself and hide from, so fighting pretty much becomes unavoidable at that point if you don't want to get gobbled. They'd be forced to fight to avoid being eaten by the demonic hordes. There'd be no hiding and waiting it out like they usually do when large-scale disasters occur, because this disaster will actively follow and hunt them down.

And with everyone else being in the same situation...

If you want to a joint Spoken/Dragon war effort, that should do the trick.

As for how such a situation would come about...blame Fandaniel and/or Zenos. If anyone would have both the means to cause such a thing and the willingness to actually do it, it would be them. Xande doesn't count because he's already been dealt with.

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There is something to think about there. Like maybe the 8th calamity is still bound to happen? Guess we'll know more in the next two patches.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I wonder the dragons would ever be willing to support Ishgard's military operations.

I could definitely see it happening if a potentially world-ending threat comes up as a result of the scheming in Garlemald since Midgarsormr would likely intervene.

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Midgardsormr is still technically sleeping to recover after saving us from Omega. Of course, this being FFXIV, we're deliberately not given a time frame for how long he'll be asleep, and it could be anywhere from "he'll wake up tomorrow" to "not within the lifetime of this star".

Also I get the impression the dragons don't actually follow by example as much as by orders. As in, if Midgardsormr ordered his brood (ie every dragon around) to help him out, they'll do it, or at least try to escape that responsibility by running away. If he asked as a request, though, or even just went "hey, there's a major threat here, I'm going to handle it, you can join me if you want", it's up to the individual dragon whether they want to bother helping.