I'm pretty sure the enmity in sword oath is actually very comparable to a DRK without grit. It seems like the biggest difference is that the big agro series that PLD has (FoF + 4x Halone in Shield Oath) takes longer and does less damage/time than a DRK just leading off with Grit + 2x Power Slash and all the oGCD attacks or a WAR with UBIR + 3x BB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizhard
This allows the DRK/WAR to build up threat very quickly (doing good dmg the entire time) and then swap to DPS (both w/o loss of a GCD) and they should be pretty set for the rest of the fight (or at least a good long while). PLD takes a good 30 seconds to establish solid hate and their DPS is crap the entire time.
PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke
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08-15-2015, 03:48 AMGiantbane
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08-15-2015, 04:18 AMBlitzace
Not here asking for a buff/nerf what ever, Got PLD + DRK And my DRK Does higher DMG(quite a bit) So people who are claiming its only a little bit nah, Its quite more. Can't say anything about war as its only 50 atm,
And unlike alot of people i tested it in dungeons/raids not just dummy's
Keeping in mind my DRK has ATR Points into str but even if i would change that up into VIT it still does alot more DMG. Which is fine for me as PLD takes in alot more DMG -
08-15-2015, 04:27 AMSleighThat very well is true, but it's still quite a nifty, useful feature and a big part of why it should be the lowest of the three tanks in pure defensive mode. Give PLD as it is the MT DPS of WAR/DRK and it just goes full circle and suddenly you've got max survivability and max DPS, and DRK is now on the fritz balance wise unless content has big magical damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellior
There's gotta be a min/max loser of the 3 when it comes to DPS and IMO PLD deserves to be the loser in that regard. Regardless, I'm seeing PLDs pull 700+ in A3S (can tank in Sword Oath a lot) and I'm not really seeing DRK go higher, and unless you're grabbing a NIN over a MNK specifically because you dropped PLD, I don't see the issue. -
08-15-2015, 04:50 AMErcapoteFinally! god bless you and all the smart people on this treat that knows what the hell we are talking about, I've been following this entire post for 2 days and god this "Phoenica" person was getting on my nerves this ladies and gentleman is the current true state of this situation and the reason PALADIN is the current focus on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellior
Honestly if anyone keep claiming other wise they are trying to hard to be so wrong about something that doesn't have any other way around. It is what it is.
I think people claiming otherwise aren't even pallys and are just hardly trying to protect their class of choice because they know right now is so perfect and has it's confy spot on every raid group right "phoenica"? -
08-15-2015, 05:22 AMIvelliorThe problem isn't really if there is a winner/looser or the tank dps. The underlying problem is a the current meta. It doesn't seem natural to want to actually limit the survivability of tanks (that's what the current BiS Itemisation is all about) or that the defensive stats are actually bad (VIT, parry). Thus the tank that offers the most safety doesn't work well in an environment where the goal is to minimize the safety as much as you can get away with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
It's only natural for the Paladin to deal less damage if he offers more safety. It wouldn't be fair if he didn't. What the people are complaining about here is that the lower damage output is essentially not worth the (wasted) extra safety. I think they are asking more more damage, not the best damage. You can balance giving them more damage by removing some of their safety. It doesn't have to be one way. And if you do, noone will care because loosing safety doesn't really matter at the moment. The raid design where almost all tank busters can't be mitigated by parry/shield block makes the extra safety even more irrelevant at this point.
A good paladin can output a good amount of dps, but an equally good DRK will always be able to output considerably more damage and a warrior will be able to output considerably more damage than the DRK and both will retain the same minimum survivability needed. That will not change because the classes were designed this way.
Basically it boils down to the fact that defence stats are a burden, a necessary evil if you want, and you need to invest in them just enough to survive the tank busters. Everything else in safety is pretty much wasted points. The fact that they don't offer anything worthwhile means that there isn't even a tradeoff in not taking them.
Unless the developers somehow make the defence stats worthwhile people will always take whatever tanks perform better. That's why the WAR now is a must have. The problem that paladins have at the moment is they are considerably lagging behind DRK who is considerably lagging behind WAR.
That very fact is apparent from the top raiding teams, who had to change PLD for DRK in order to increase damage output. And before people start saying that "you aren't the top tier raiding team so it doesn't matter", please consider the fact that the problems the high tier raiding teams are facing today are the problems your raiding team will be facing tomorrow or the day after.
There is no escaping the reality of numbers and as gear will get better and better the difference will become even more apparent. I mean, really, if the "safety" tank isn't optimal during progression where safety is supposed to help more, why even consider it when the item level will be higher the everyone's safety and error margin will increase even more? -
08-15-2015, 05:25 AMAdrasteia
It isn't even just raiding, really. Dungeons drag on considerably longer with a PLD over DRK/WAR because of anemic AoE/single-target damage, and the extra survivability helps even less than in a raid (unless your healer's falling asleep at the wheel).
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08-15-2015, 05:32 AMAnger
This is pure imbalance. Breaking it down simply.
One-hundred percent of the time the Paladin will be out damaged by Warrior and Dark Knight - if played correctly.
The Paladin cannot out-defend the other two tanks one-hundred percent of the time, though.
In other words, the other tanks have a clear advantage over the Paladin and the Paladin has zero advantages.
In almost all Savage floors it makes more sense to take the better-magic-mitigating dark knight with superior damage than a Paladin. -
08-15-2015, 05:33 AMErcapoteThis is sadly true, I finish dungeon faster with my darknight than with my pally. I've even been doing Ex roulette with my darknight instead of using my pally for this specific reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrasteia
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08-15-2015, 06:30 AMSleighHey I agree that PLD isn't left in the dust but I would not go so far as to say PLD + WAR > DRK + WAR in A3S. Advantages for DRK:Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
- Lets you use a comp without MNK if you wish
- Higher, easier MT DPS (have to Sword a lot which is slightly less survivable than Grit)
- Basically gets a free pass at tethers, especially helpful if you have no BLM for Apocatastasis. DRK is #1 tether getter and those things are tank busters legit. Other tanks can take care of them but that means less CDs for the boss.
- Reprisal's really quite nice when it comes to the mechanics. Needed? Definitely not, but it can turn a mistake into low health rather than death.
PLD advantages:
- Rage of Halone is really nice since a lot of the damage in the first half that's threatening is physical, and while it's less useful than Reprisal in final phase it's still quite nice. My group switched to DRK week 2 and we immediately felt the loss of Rage of Halone.
- Divine Veil for certain times, kind of counteracts Reprisal loss but with less uptime.
- Stun monster. Definitely don't need all the stuns, but the option's there (especially during progression, as your group is getting their shit together on the stun priorities and who-gets-what in add phase)
- HG slightly more useful than Living Dead, but this is the kind of fight you can plan for Benediction + Living Dead and we never wiped due to a lack of having either later on.
They're both pretty groovy in A3S honestly. We favor DRK for the free tether mitigation and Reprisal, but that's just us.
Yes and no. I understand the tank DPS meta, but I also know that passive mitigation from the shield over time is enough to let the Regen/Embrace/Asylum combo keep up a tank where otherwise it would fail on other tanks in certain situations. Part of why Sword Oath PLD as MT works so well, it's like a fake tank stance built in, not necessarily reliable at all times but over the course of 5-10 AAs you'll see the mitigation help your healer DPS just enough that they can keep on trucking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
PLD will probably get changed but I really don't think it needs much. These fights are just super DRK friendly IMO, I think the tune would change pretty quick if magic wasn't so dang deadly right now on tanks.
You can edit everything into one post, just FYIQuote:
Originally Posted by Ercapote
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08-15-2015, 06:33 AMNFaelivrin
It's really funny to me that a good chunk of this thread has consisted of Warrior mains going "well tanks are balanced because you still have to bring another tank besides the mandatory WAR OT" as if somehow one class of three having a guaranteed spot while the other two compete for the same raid spot as MT is good balance. Doesn't it seem silly that not only is PLD/WAR usually not preferred over DRK/WAR, but that not a single serious raid group considers PLD/DRK remotely viable?