Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Maximum HPS? The “maximum HPS” one needs is enough to ensure the party survives.

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That's minimum HPS, what's the least amount of healing you can do to keep the group alive.

You can deny that WHM has superior HPS. But, I find it baffling you sit there and say SCH has equal HPS to WHM, even if that extra WHM HPS isn't needed most of the time. Not even Square agrees with you on that.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Uh, Astrologian and Scholar are also healers and can output just as much HPS as White Mage can.

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SCH has inferior HPS compared to WHM, but they can output nice burst HPS that won't need to be sustained. Maximum HPS on WHM is insane.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You can continue to quote me all you want. I still stand behind what I said, and that won’t change. No content ever requires for this “maximum HPS” that you keep going on about. Not even the hardest content in the game. You are arguing in a vacuum—not in actuality with regards to the healing needed in content. I really wish you would actually look at the numbers on that site. For everything from Ultimates to Savage to even EX and the 24-mans. In the latter two, SCH was ahead of WHM for most percentiles—they were actually at the top in terms of HPS.

I’m more inclined to side with the numbers that come from actual content. Not with opinions based on “facts” that would only be present in a vacuum.

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I never said the content requires "maximum HPS", hell I even called the advantage useless. You can say you are looking at the "numbers", but the "numbers" are what proves WHM has more HPS potential then SCH. What you are doing is distorting the data to suit your own purposes, and I already explained how. The maximum HPS potential from a WHM is above that of a SCH. Just because it's not needed in a perfect raid environment and not shown in top tier parses doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Please stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

Read my previous posts please. I don't want to repeat myself.

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I did. You were wrong. Plain and simple. The only reason you accused HyoMin of nitpicking is because she pointed it out.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

I disagree that the difference between SCH and WHM is minimal. I would say that SCH HPS is good enough to do anything and WHM extra HPS is unneeded. You also need to take into account that shields don't stack, whereas pure healing will always increase the HP bar if low and isn't limited like a shield is.

If you want to believe WHM = SCH for HPS go ahead, I've stated my piece. Feel free to disagree with me.

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It makes no difference if you disagree. Statistics say you're assessment was incorrect. I find a tad hypocritical your initial response was:

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I'm not going to speak for AST, but at least for SCH it has a lower HPS than WHM and that's a fact.

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Turns out, it was not a fact. At least not in the context which sparked this debate. And now you're resorting to opinions. In a vacuum where all three healers do nothing but spam heal? You may an argument, especially with White Mage's MP sustainability. In an actual raid setting? The difference is, indeed, minimal whether you like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

That's minimum HPS, what's the least amount of healing you can do to keep the group alive.

You can deny that WHM has superior HPS. But, I find it baffling you sit there and say SCH has equal HPS to WHM, even if that extra WHM HPS isn't needed most of the time. Not even Square agrees with you on that.

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Maximum HPS is irrelevant though because you will, ever heal like that. Even in prog, where White Mage does have an advantage, you aren't going to just heal barring few exceptions. So the argument you're clinging to won't have any bearing in an actual fight. It's the equivalent of saying Samurai has high damage. Yes, it does. It doesn't matter when Dragoon and Ninja have a higher overall contribution. Or for a strictly healer example. White Mage will do more DPS than either Scholar or Astro on a target dummy. So, technically speaking, it has a higher DPS output. No one cares because fight designs more or less guarantees it will be frequently hindered by its lack of mobility and oGCD healing.

As for Square disagreeing. I mean... they say a lot of things. It doesn't mean they're correct.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Turns out, it was not a fact.

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It is still a fact.

It's not an opinion that WHM can output the most HPS.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

It still is a fact.

It's not an opinion that WHM can output the most HPS.

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No, no. Don't cherry pick now. Let's quote that second sentence you ignored: "Turns out, it was not a fact. At least not in the context which sparked this debate."

As I said, in a vacuum? Yes. This argument did not start based on White Mage spam healing non-stop but with a raid setting in mind. In that context, all three healers heal relatively the same. Any further HPS potential is completely unnecessary, and therefore cannot be counted as an advantage or in any way beneficial since you aren't going to utilize it.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No, no. Don't cherry pick now. Let's quote that second sentence you ignored: "Turns out, it was not a fact. At least not in the context which sparked this debate."

As I said, in a vacuum? Yes. This argument did not start based on White Mage spam healing non-stop but with a raid setting in mind. In that context, all three healers heal relatively the same. Any further HPS potential is completely unnecessary, and therefore cannot be counted as an advantage or in any way beneficial since you aren't going to utilize it.

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I agree with you by saying the HPS potential is useless most of the time, I even called the advantage useless because we were discussing it in a raid setting. I was just pointing out that SCH and WHM do not have the same HPS potential. I wasn't arguing that it'd be beneficial in a raid setting where people know what they are doing.

An advantage is still an advantage even if it's not currently useful. If Usain Bolt is riding a bus, his running speed won't give him an advantage on the bus ergo it's useless. But, the fact he is the fastest runner on the planet is still an advantage in running compared to other people running.

Why has this changed into an argument about the definition of "advantage"?

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Originally Posted by Ftail

I never said the content requires "maximum HPS", hell I even called the advantage useless. You can say you are looking at the "numbers", but the "numbers" are what proves WHM has more HPS potential then SCH. What you are doing is distorting the data to suit your own purposes, and I already explained how. The maximum HPS potential from a WHM is above that of a SCH. Just because it's not needed in a perfect raid environment and not shown in top tier parses doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Please stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

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I'm not distorting anything. You are trying to argue numbers and values in a vacuum without considering how healing in this game actually goes. SCH and WHM are extremely close in the HPS necessary for the content. "Maximum HPS" (or "HPS potential") are irrelevant in this argument because healers are not played that way. And the type of healing you're arguing for is unnecessary and inefficient. All that is needed is enough to survive. After that, your MP is spent better elsewhere. And this can honestly go for any content, because dungeons or 24-mans do not require massive overhealing or "displays of HPS potential". The outgoing damage for them is actually quite small.

As per the data - which is available for you to go see for yourself at any time you choose to see that I am not manipulating it - SCH is not massively behind WHM at most percentiles. And I'm talking the difference is perhaps a few hundred HPS. Not this massive difference that, again, would only be present in a vacuum. In a vacuum, WHM can outheal both, if due to nothing more than the MP sustain they have. But the vacuum is not actuality. I hope you understand that, because I'm arguing from the perspective of actuality. Not a vacuum. In actuality, all three healers push out nearly the same HPS as one another, which was my entire argument that you chose to counter. Again, the numbers are there for you to go view whenever you choose.


If you were aware that the context was discussing healing in raids, why even bring up (and continue to bring up) this irrelevant point of WHM's advantage? You seem upset that this conversation keeps going, but you were the one who started it, and who continues to feed it by replying to posters who disagree with you and present numbers to the contrary.

Sorry, you will not change my stance nor my declaration. And saying I'm manipulating data won't change it either. The numbers are there for everyone to see. No need to manipulate anything with regards to what I'm actually arguing. I hope you have a good rest of the day - I'm off to go finish up the Four Lords on my alt. Feel free to contact me on Discord (tag is in my signature) for further discussion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm not distorting anything. You are trying to argue numbers and values in a vacuum without considering how healing in this game actually goes

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You distorted the comment I made. You knew I was making a general comment about WHM, and you brought up top tier parses to prove yourself right knowing the point I made exists outside of an optimal raid environment. I have considered how healing works in this game, which is why you took me out of context. I simply stated WHM has a higher maximum HPS potential in comparison to SCH. I also stated that the advantage of extra healing from WHM was useless in an optimal raid setting.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

SCH and WHM are extremely close in the HPS necessary for the content. "Maximum HPS" (or "HPS potential") are irrelevant in this argument because healers are not played that way. And the type of healing you're arguing for is unnecessary and inefficient.

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You are right healers are not played that way and I have never said that they are "played that way".

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

As per the data - which is available for you to go see for yourself at any time you choose to see that I am not manipulating it - SCH is not massively behind WHM at most percentiles.

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When you are doing a raid in an optimized setting, you try to do as little healing as possible while maximizing your DPS. SCH is OP at dishing out DPS and WHM suffers while being unable to flex its HPS.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not this massive difference that, again, would only be present in a vacuum. In a vacuum, WHM can outheal both, if due to nothing more than the MP sustain they have. But the vacuum is not actuality. I hope you understand that, because I'm arguing from the perspective of actuality. Not a vacuum. In actuality, all three healers push out nearly the same HPS as one another, which was my entire argument that you chose to counter. Again, the numbers are there for you to go view whenever you choose.

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WHM can outheal SCH, because it has a higher maximum HPS potential not including MP sustain. "All three healers" do not have the same HPS, but they can push out the required HPS for any raid. Which was my entire argument to you. There is a difference and it matters.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You seem upset that this conversation keeps going, but you were the one who started it, and who continues to feed it by replying to posters who disagree with you and present numbers to the contrary.

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I'm perfectly calm, once you present your numbers in a proper manner, I really hope I might learn something new.

It’s more or less funny if you use ff logs to see the last savage raid tier and we’re whm normally has a lot higher play rate the sch or astro you see how that they have less and real less dmg then the best support healer Astro In comparison just because astro is way over buffed with instant bubble and malefic 1 sec less cast timer for more mobility.

Simple way to buff whm personal dmg give him the malefic treatment on his dmg casts. It’s simple but It will work

Would love to see something along the lines of what we saw Kuribu in The Lost City of Amdapor (Hard) cast - think it was named something such as 'Reverse' or 'Reversal'? correct me if I'm wrong!

Say it would change the effects of some of the WHM's skills for a brief period of time, say ten seconds or so, in which Medica II for example could instead cast an AoE party buff (be it damage reduction, damage buff etc) almost something like the AST's cards prior to 5.0

Doesn't necessarily need to be what I stated above - but I think it could work well as we move into Shadowbringers and 'embracing the darkness' so to speak, that we as WHM's would use a skill such as Reversal (again, correct me if I'm forgetting the actual skill name) to pervert the White Magic that we actually use in order to gain more offensive abilities.

What y'all think?