How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

Hi guys, Can I know whats the mininum Gear i should be wearing if i were to go in for A9s wit drg.
Thanks in advance!

Well as long as you know your job i'd say 240gear is enough, sophia weapon would be appreciated.
Otherwise some crafted gear + alexander NM gear is good.
If you can pentameld here's the stuff I started with as an exemple:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WDCA
Accuracy cap must be around 670 (like A5S) to be sure.

The dps required depend only of your wish,
There isn't really any dps check.

alright! thanks man!
Jus 1 more question, what is the min dex i should hav?
or if i do it this way (dunno wat to meld yet) would it be alright?

By dex you mean skill speed?
IF that's what you mean then the cap is something like 599.
So yeah, I melded to have my SS cap, even a bit more because I personnaly find this more comfortable.
And there should be enough accuracy for A9S-A11S.

Sorry this was the build i forgot to link http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WOVC .
and i mean Det ><.. kinda sleepy. haha

Is that the build you're aiming for later?

Aiming to use it for a9s-11s. workable?

The one I gave you earlier is a lot better.
Take it as a basis and add some 260 gear.
Aim for critical.

Wait.. We don't have to lock-on target anymore to land all auto-attacks?

Ahah no, finally you can even AA from your back.

any opinions on this? http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WGE2

Vitality melds?

Otherwise it's the actual BiS.

oh i forgot to change the melds lul.

okay thanks

Weights from Dervy: https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/stat-weights/


WD: 14.956
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.207
CRT: 0.279
SS: 0.170

Based on the new stat weights, I believe I've come up with a new BiS that utilizes a crafted ring with penta Vs..
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WVS1

Anyone able to come up with something else?

Edit: Nvm someone on reddit came up with this being better http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VZ8I

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Originally Posted by Tetsuya

Compared your last set with the one previously linked and the one previously seems to still have better stat weights than yours, if you can trust the "show weights" option to show accurate values that is.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WCFC

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I'm getting 3447.271 w/ Au Ra - Xaela on the one you linked (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/WCFC).

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/VZ8I is 3448.623

Did you see something different?

New relic step is 260, as predicted by many. Might actually beat out the unupgraded shire weapon for progression, depending on how the stats scale

Got cleared up.


(if someone like Krindor could enlighten me:
I would said having more STR is better anyway since it up your "attack" while secondary stats doesn't. Like I guess it add up in the calcul of your damage before other secondary stats, is that the way it works or not?)

But it sims at +0.4 DPS ;P

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Originally Posted by Shamox

SS cap is something like 599 if I'm not wrong so yeah, having more is useless while having a little less is tolerable.

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The next tier after 599 is 625 so having both 592 and 624 are a large amount of wasted stats, 20 and 25. In these cases it's almost better to meld an additional skillspeed materia, the weight of using a grade 5 materia to hit a tier is 26.41/12*0.17 = 0.37 which is lot higher than the weight of crit.

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Originally Posted by Shamox

(if someone like Krindor could enlighten me:
I would said having more STR is better anyway since it up your "attack" while secondary stats doesn't. Like I guess it add up in the calcul of your damage before other secondary stats, is that the way it works or not?)

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I'm not entirely sure if I understand your question, but correct me if I'm wrong, you're asking if at an equal trade of in weight STR is superior to secondary stats? If that is the question the answer is actually no. I do understand what you're thinking and my initial thought was the same. But a while back me and Dervy tested this and it prooved me wrong. Both Crit and Det gives a better increase at an equal trade off, especially crit due to its quadratic function. So if you have the choice of getting 1/0.279 crit or 1 STR always go with the crit.

EDIT: Actually looking back at the tests we did, Det actually gives less after 800 points. But stacking an equal amount of crit is never going to be worth less within possible limits(Starts to fall off at 3k crit).

A random thought, but would you be able to boost dragoon dps if you had them working in unison? The idea is to have a IDC4> TTT4> TTT4 rotation, where all buffed dots from chaos thrust tick, and immediate damage from the TTT4 combo is available. The issue to pull off double TTT4 here is the fact that disembowel would fall off.

This would be where the 2nd dragoon comes in. By starting with a TTT4 combo, their disembowel would come later, resulting in it staying refreshed for the first dragoon's TTT4 combo.

H -> IDC4 -> P -> TTT4 -> TTT4 -> Repeat
H -> TTT4 -> P -> IDC4 ->TTT4 -> Repeat

*excuse my first post of the forum

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Originally Posted by Krindor

The next tier after 599 is 625 so having both 592 and 624 are a large amount of wasted stats, 20 and 25. In these cases it's almost better to meld an additional skillspeed materia, the weight of using a grade 5 materia to hit a tier is 26.41/12*0.17 = 0.37 which is lot higher than the weight of crit.

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I was gonna put a SS V anyway since I really prefer playing with my 600SS tier so I can play more risky on Botd, if it ends up being better than crit in terme of stats then it's really nice.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

I'm not entirely sure if I understand your question, but correct me if I'm wrong, you're asking if at an equal trade of in weight STR is superior to secondary stats? If that is the question the answer is actually no. I do understand what you're thinking and my initial thought was the same. But a while back me and Dervy tested this and it prooved me wrong. Both Crit and Det gives a better increase at an equal trade off, especially crit due to its quadratic function. So if you have the choice of getting 1/0.279 crit or 1 STR always go with the crit.

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Yup that's what I wanted to know.
Thank you for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by NanahaOdd

A random thought, but would you be able to boost dragoon dps if you had them working in unison? The idea is to have a IDC4> TTT4> TTT4 rotation, where all buffed dots from chaos thrust tick, and immediate damage from the TTT4 combo is available. The issue to pull off double TTT4 here is the fact that disembowel would fall off.

This would be where the 2nd dragoon comes in. By starting with a TTT4 combo, their disembowel would come later, resulting in it staying refreshed for the first dragoon's TTT4 combo.

H -> IDC4 -> P -> TTT4 -> TTT4 -> Repeat
H -> TTT4 -> P -> IDC4 ->TTT4 -> Repeat

*excuse my first post of the forum

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The main reason you don't want to do that is because Chaos Thrust is so good that sharing Disembowel doesn't do anything for you, barring exceptional circumstances (like in 24P instances, maybe you're hitting an add and someone else is ignoring it). Full Thrust combo is just filler. Not considering oGCD buffs, you would legit only suffer a couple % DPS loss for using Chaos Thrust combo in place of Full Thrust combo, that's how good it is.

Welcome to the forums... don't believe everything you read here!

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

The main reason you don't want to do that is because Chaos Thrust is so good that sharing Disembowel doesn't do anything for you, barring exceptional circumstances (like in 24P instances, maybe you're hitting an add and someone else is ignoring it). Full Thrust combo is just filler. Not considering oGCD buffs, you would legit only suffer a couple % DPS loss for using Chaos Thrust combo in place of Full Thrust combo, that's how good it is.

Welcome to the forums... don't believe everything you read here!

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Wouldn't getting full ticks off buffed chaos thrust be better than clipping it? The disembowel is just a means to have chaos ticks tick out and support the filler combo of full thrust.

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Originally Posted by NanahaOdd

Wouldn't getting full ticks off buffed chaos thrust be better than clipping it? The disembowel is just a means to have chaos ticks tick out and support the filler combo of full thrust.

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Well, my primary contention is that your second goon should be opening with CT as well; also, both should maintain maximal Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize uptime regardless.

But squaring those away, the problem is subtle enough that you have to look at it systematically. The following is such an analysis, and not for the faint of heart.

Let's say your GCD is 2.4 seconds. The normal rotation is (piercing damage):

1x Heavy Thrust = 170
1x Phlebotomize = 170
1x Chaos Thrust combo = 180 + 220 + 250 + 290 = 940
1x Full Thrust combo = 150 + 200 + 360 + 290 = 1000

=> 2280 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 2884.2

The extended rotation, normalized to the same 24 seconds and getting Disembowel from someone else, is:

1x Heavy Thrust = 170
1x Phlebotomize = 170
2/3x Chaos Thrust combo = 940 / 3 = 626.667
4/3x Full Thrust combo = 1000 * 2 / 3 = 1333.333

=> 2300 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 2909.5

We can assume there is no difference to Phlebotomize DoT. But now, the part we were looking at: Chaos Thrust uptime.

Normally, this would be 35 (plus a little buff from SS, which we'll approximate as "between 36 and 37" at this base GCD) every 3 seconds. Normally, you are getting 24 seconds of that every 24 seconds, which means:

36.5 * 8 * 1.15 = 335.8 (per 24)

and with the "full ticks, less uptime" rotation, you are getting 60 seconds of Chaos Thrust (20 ticks) every 72 seconds (hence the divisor of 3).

36.5 * 20/3 * 1.15 = 279.833 (per 24)

You gain 2909.5 - 2884.2 = 25.3 potency (per 24 seconds) to piercing damage, but at a loss of 335.8 - 279.833 = 55.96700 potency (per 24 seconds). What you stand to lose rotationally is a net total of 30.667 / 24s.

Now, because the question is about a buffed Chaos Thrust, the natural extension of this information is to consider the temporary gains versus the rotational loss. We can accept on its face that both of these options are going to hit the second Blood for Blood shortly after we pretty much have to use a Chaos Thrust combo; it's far enough out that let's just forget it. Over a timeframe of 80 seconds (the period of the greatest buff) we compare:

potency of buffed clipped Chaos Thrust (24s) + 2.333x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrusts (56s)

and

potency of buffed Chaos Thrust (36s) + 1.833x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrust (44s).

With a little algebra, we see that we are actually trying to compare:

potency of buffed clipped Chaos Thrust (24s) + 0.5x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrust

and

potency of buffed Chaos Thrust (36s).

We know 0.5x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrust to be 335.8 / 2 = 167.9. We got 99 potency gained out of extra Full Thrust, so take that down to 68.9 and two unknown quantities. Doing a little more algebra, we know 8 of the DoT ticks being the same, we need to match 68.9 potency with buffs only from two DoT ticks (73 potency). So you can crit luckily for one to beat the other, but as an average, it will never happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NanahaOdd

A random thought, but would you be able to boost dragoon dps if you had them working in unison? The idea is to have a IDC4> TTT4> TTT4 rotation, where all buffed dots from chaos thrust tick, and immediate damage from the TTT4 combo is available. The issue to pull off double TTT4 here is the fact that disembowel would fall off.

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Seems logical enough but the math doesn't support it, as Sunny so eloquently provided above.

Although, if Thendiel's math is right it would work eventually with high enough skill speed. 1500 something iirc

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

New relic step is 260, as predicted by many. Might actually beat out the unupgraded shire weapon for progression, depending on how the stats scale

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As an update, my trident was at 120 crit, 114 det and 6 ss. It has now scaled to 133 crit, 124 det and 6 ss. Weapon damage, Str and vit are the same as unupgraded shire, but the auto attack is higher (at least for me it is)

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X0TL
This is my current equips.

Any tips on what to go from here? I can clear up to A11S in RF (working on A12S right now). I tried to come up with my own but the accuracy and skill speed problems threw me off.
I will also probably get the Shire weapon next week (no luck from rolls) in case it helps with planning.

My fellow dragoons, I need some help with planning my gear as well.

I do not currently have a fixed raid group, so no savage items available, but want to optimize my gear for when I find a group. Also: while pentamelds are not fully out of the question, I am trying to avoid them where possible as I am quite short on cash.
Best combination I was able to figure out is this: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X1R4
Any thoughts on improving it?

Thank you!

Has anyone considered an accu/crit relic? If the relic ends up at i275 I think an accu/crit would be a good option since we can swap the shire pants for the savage pants, and we'll get over 1.2k crit.

Edit: something like this but with i275 weapon dmg, str and secondary stats. Probably nothing important for now since we don't even know if the relic will ever get to i275 lol.

{sigh} the only way this 275 Alex weapon could be any worse was if it stole my money and killed my dog

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

{sigh} the only way this 275 Alex weapon could be any worse was if it stole my money and killed my dog

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It could be SS > Det instead of Det > SS :D

For who have experimented, is it worth going into extreme SkS territory? With specific gear upgrades, I could push 761 without food. Just curious if that crosses past the "dead zone" on DRG. Drawing examples from here.

I’m currently working on A12S and was wondering if you guys have some optimization tips.

As of now, this is what I’m doing:
- Default rotation until Alexander vanishes (skip DFD)
- Heavy Thrust into RoT to clip 4 adds, while tank positions all adds together
- Doom Spike + IR into Geirskogul on all 8 adds. Here I wait until I have my 2nd B4B up before I use the DFD I saved earlier for max padding inbetween Doom Spikes, while also using BOTD with the sole purpose of firing another Geirskogul
- For the 4 cardinal adds, I just do TTT combo with OGCDs inbetween. They seem to die so fast that CT combo doesn’t seem to be worth it.
- Regular rotation on the two big adds.

Then it gets tricky. I hate Stasis with the passion of a thousand suns. The only way I found to be able to keep BOTD is by skipping Phleb during the opener I do when Alexander respawns. Between moving to Stasis and having to dodge a sacrament (specially regular sacrament), there’s just no time to keep BOTD without playing EXTREMELY risky and risking dying or skipping the Phleb. What do you guys do during that? I’m wondering if I should stick with regular rotation and just blow BOTD on a Geirskogul, or skip the Phleb to keep BOTD.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

I’m currently working on A12S and was wondering if you guys have some optimization tips.

As of now, this is what I’m doing:
- Default rotation until Alexander vanishes (skip DFD)
- Heavy Thrust into RoT to clip 4 adds, while tank positions all adds together
- Doom Spike + IR into Geirskogul on all 8 adds. Here I wait until I have my 2nd B4B up before I use the DFD I saved earlier for max padding inbetween Doom Spikes, while also using BOTD with the sole purpose of firing another Geirskogul
- For the 4 cardinal adds, I just do TTT combo with OGCDs inbetween. They seem to die so fast that CT combo doesn’t seem to be worth it.
- Regular rotation on the two big adds.

Then it gets tricky. I hate Stasis with the passion of a thousand suns. The only way I found to be able to keep BOTD is by skipping Phleb during the opener I do when Alexander respawns. Between moving to Stasis and having to dodge a sacrament (specially regular sacrament), there’s just no time to keep BOTD without playing EXTREMELY risky and risking dying or skipping the Phleb. What do you guys do during that? I’m wondering if I should stick with regular rotation and just blow BOTD on a Geirskogul, or skip the Phleb to keep BOTD.

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For adds, I skipped Phlebotomize so I can go straight with TT > VT (Alex usually disappear here), then use FT on one of the adds, continue with 4th on another. Now I have around 24 sec on BotD so I go HT > Geir on all adds > RoT > DS until Geir come off cooldown the use it.

I don't have problem with Stasis. When Stasis happened I'm ALWAYS on the 4th combo proc with normal opening rotation (save Spineshatter for gap closer), what's your GCD? This does not disappear since it's a buff. Then I just jump back to Alex to continue DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

What do you guys do during that? I’m wondering if I should stick with regular rotation and just blow BOTD on a Geirskogul, or skip the Phleb to keep BOTD.

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What I do is use Spineshatter Dive as part of the opener and skip the Phlebotomize. Then while I'm running to my position I do a single Piercing Talon trying to make up for the dps loss. But skipping the Spineshatter Dive and using Phlebotomize is probably the most optimal way of doing it between the two.

A third way would be to do the complete opener with Spineshatter Dive AND Phlebotomize, and then using Elusive Jump to go back to the boss quickly after the Time Stasis ends. But I generally use it in the add phase, so it's not up at that moment.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

Then it gets tricky. I hate Stasis.... BOTD is by skipping Phleb during the opener .... dodge a sacrament (specially regular sacrament), there’s just no time to keep BOTD without playing EXTREMELY risky and risking dying or skipping the Phleb. What do you guys do during that?

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For the stasis part, I've found you can do the full rotation with phleb, Full thrust, popping a Geirk, and keeping your BotD buff, but you need to save a DFD or SSD. The key is to move when the cast bar hits the "St" of "Temporal Stasis." I have just enough time to make it to my cardinal direction before I freeze. I am now frozen with 3-5 secs left on BoTD and my 4th combo prepped. I SSD or DFD back to Alex, hit the 4th combo while dodging gravitational, and prepping for sacrament.

Second Stasis same thing, but I use Back flip instead of a jump... its a little more tricky to aim so be careful on this one.

I was cheking the item weight of some items and i ended up finding something cool (i think), the 'Teak Choker of Slaying' pentamelded (Crit V x1 / Crit IV x4) end up with 96 points of item weight, i think that make it the best necklace, even better than Alexandrian (89) & Shire (91)?

Yes but you're also losing 42-59 accuracy, which means that you need to make up for that loss somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

Then it gets tricky. I hate Stasis with the passion of a thousand suns. The only way I found to be able to keep BOTD is by skipping Phleb during the opener I do when Alexander respawns. Between moving to Stasis and having to dodge a sacrament (specially regular sacrament), there’s just no time to keep BOTD without playing EXTREMELY risky and risking dying or skipping the Phleb. What do you guys do during that? I’m wondering if I should stick with regular rotation and just blow BOTD on a Geirskogul, or skip the Phleb to keep BOTD.

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I do usual opener for first stasis, but i dont use Geirskogul and spineshatter dive. Right after full thrust, i elusive jump to my position, have the stasis happen, watch where the gravitational pops as I SpineShatter dive back right on boss. Allows you to maintain everything. Havent tried too much with Geirskoguling during the opener tho, maybe I could pop it and still be fine, ill try it out tonight.