I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Interesting thing about you spank it, you tank it. What if the healer makes the choice to heal the one who pulled and gets aggro? I ran into a tank that pulled the tank it, you spank it card on a drg that pulled extra mobs. I was healing, and I do not like the idea of just letting someone die if I can help them. The tank stood their ground after the initial pack of mobs the tank pulled were dead. I ended up tanking the rest as the healer. I get what the tank was trying to do, but in the end their action made my job objectively harder then it would have been if they had just got aggro on the extra pack of mobs. Since I had to juggle between the two sources since I already started to heal the DPS.

I get the mindset behind it, but unless the rest of the group is on board with the tank it really does make life harder for everyone else.

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Speaking as someone who mains a healer, if healing someone else will kill you then don't heal them. Let them die and you can res them. It's a pretty good rule to have in general. A healer dying can quickly doom the group to wipe. A dead dps can be ressed.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Speaking as someone who mains a healer, if healing someone else will kill you then don't heal them. Let them die and you can res them. It's a pretty good rule to have in general. A healer dying can quickly doom the group to wipe. A dead dps can be ressed.

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True, though not like an extra pack of mobs would be enough to kill me as a healer unless I stopped casting, just made my role harder because the tank refused to get aggro even after the mobs started to attack me. That is my issue with you spank it, you tank it. Just like pulling for someone else is rude, if the tank does not know if the rest of the group is on the same page it just creates a even further headache then if they had just took aggro off the person that pulled extra mobs.

Sure in the grand scheme it was not wipe threatening in this case, and I get it is a weird dynamic to be the tanks actions did make my job as a healer objectively more difficult because they refused to get aggro off someone to teach them a lesson. I get the drg was doing the same, but if we weigh out which one has greater overall impact on the group. One could say him not taking aggro factually inconvenienced two other people in this case because I made the choice to heal the DPS.

Granted their actions would have been neutral if I did not help, but since I had no clue that was their intent the tank I did heal the dps.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Personally I don't mind wiping if teaches a rude player a lesson.

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And that makes you toxic. You're willing to intentionally and maliciously obstruct the entire party because someone does something that upsets you personally.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No one should be silently pulling extra packs and just expecting the tank to just take care of it. If you're not mannerly enough to even say anything about it first, then you don't really deserve the tank's protection.

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This thread started specifically in reference to endgame roulettes; Mass pulling is the standard so most people don't see a necessity to communicate about it. Sometimes people don't even notice the tank has stopped at the first pack of mobs, and accidentally sprint ahead into the aggro range of the next pack.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm quite disappointed to see how common it is for people to basically say "ya I know doing that is rude but the tank should just be the better person and deal with it". Gosh, putting all the moral weight and responsibility on the tank while the rude people who pull silently are supposed to just get away with it. How lovely. Really glad I'm not in the same data centre as some of you.

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It's even more disappointing to see how many people endorse literal, bannable griefing as a justified emotional response to the situation.

The reason the 'Burden' is placed on the tank in this situation is because a single-pulling tank in an endgame roulette is widely considered a detriment to the party; They're playing in a way that is considered obstructive/slow by most players doing endgame roulettes, and (assuming they've cleared the dungeon before), they're doing so out of incompetence.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

And that makes you toxic. You're willing to intentionally and maliciously obstruct the entire party because someone does something that upsets you personally.

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Lol this is hilarious. You are calling me toxic because I won't let someone have their way without even asking anyone about it. Apparently I'm supposed to just let everyone do what they want, change my playstyle to match and if I don't I'm toxic? What I want or what I can do doesn't matter? Only what other people want matters? Buzz off with that hypocrisy. No one exists just to satisfy the silent whims of another player regardless of your role.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

This thread started specifically in reference to endgame roulettes; Mass pulling is the standard so most people don't see a necessity to communicate about it. Sometimes people don't even notice the tank has stopped at the first pack of mobs, and accidentally sprint ahead into the aggro range of the next pack.

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First of all mass pulling does not mean you always pull everything. Secondly I have NEVER seen anyone say "oh didn't notice you stopped moving" to a tank because it's pretty damn obvious considering they're being followed by a bunch of mobs. Not saying it never happens but I would find it hard to believe that it is anything other than rare. A tank pulling multiple packs is not exactly subtle behaviour.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The reason the 'Burden' is placed on the tank in this situation is because a single-pulling tank in an endgame roulette is widely considered a detriment to the party; They're playing in a way that is considered obstructive/slow by most players doing endgame roulettes, and (assuming they've cleared the dungeon before), they're doing so out of incompetence.

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But people are not talking about only single pack pulls! :D

I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Lol this is hilarious. You are calling me toxic because I won't let someone have their way without even asking anyone about it. Apparently I'm supposed to just let everyone do what they want, change my playstyle to match and if I don't I'm toxic? What I want or what I can do doesn't matter? Only what other people want matters? Buzz off with that hypocrisy. No one exists just to satisfy the silent whims of another player regardless of your role.

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I'm calling you toxic because you endorsed griefing the entire party. You should try to handle the situation, and then ask them not to do it again. Maliciously obstructing the entire remainder of the party to punish one person is absolutely toxic behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

First of all mass pulling does not mean you always pull everything. Secondly I have NEVER seen anyone say "oh didn't notice you stopped moving" to a tank because it's pretty damn obvious considering they're being followed by a bunch of mobs. Not saying it never happens but I would find it hard to believe that it is anything other than rare. A tank pulling multiple packs is not exactly subtle behaviour.

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It's not uncommon to outpace the tank if they decide to stop for 2 GCDs to establish threat. I frequently manage to get ahead of the tank while playing WHM.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But people are not talking about only single pack pulls! :D

I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

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Wall-to-wall is standard in all of the current endgame dungeons, aside from perhaps the final pull of amenesis which most parties seem to communicate about before attempting (and most seem to do it anyway).
Also, people have absolutely been trying to justify single pulling throughout this thread.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It is easily demonstrable that a relatively slight change in behavior is needed to accommodate 1 more pack. I am not arguing this. My point is that while to us it may seem minimal, it's very possibly beyond someone elses actual limits.

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I do not disagree that there are players with actual limits. But the same solution said to players asking for wall to wall pulls should be said to them as well, which is to form your own party (and now trusts will make that much easier for them as well). Using DF to queue to a dungeon means you should take into consideration the party needs into your game play. No one should force the entire group into one play style or another. And yes, you can just kick the player that doesn't want to or leave if the group doesn't fit your needs.

The reason I asked my question was to see what are the reasons that really do boil down to the skill of a player that the average casual player playing this game can't do. Is there really a reason that can prevent the majority of casual players tanking from doing two packs? If the solution to such reason is something the average tank can easily do, then is doing two packs really a problem? If not, then the players asking for single pulls are in the same category as those asking for wall to wall pulls, which is trying to force the party to adjust to their own needs, since both are at the extreme sides of the player base. So they'll either have to adjust to the party's needs, leave or get kicked. Yes, this is asking them to change their play style, but not to my preference, but to the party's. Be it single pulls or wall to wall pulls. And since, from what I have seen, a lot of groups can handle two packs but not wall to wall pulls, then the chances of having a party asking for two packs is very high.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Having a lot of enemies using AoE on me can still degrade my performance. My focus shifts to avoiding the AoEs and attacking goes on autopilot. That means I'll mostly use the two basic AoE attacks and forget more fancy attacks with cooldowns.

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I would have agreed with this point if the second boss in Amaurot didn't exist. The add phase is a clusterfudge of mobs and AOEs going all over. So if players can handle it, they can handle the AOEs from two packs, which in most cases aren't as many as the ones from the adds phase. But even if we were to go with the issue of degraded performance. It is a sacrifice to be made for the party's needs. A player wanting wall to wall pulls is also sacrificing performance to adjust to smaller packs (to them, their performance is related to how optimal they're utilizing their job skills).

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Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

If you want to pull you play a tank
If you have a problem with the tank not pulling enough well next time you'll queue as one of the for tank jobs.

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So I should queue as a tank and pull wall to wall even if the healer and DPS can't handle it?

If you want to pull you play a tank
If you have a problem with the tank not pulling enough well next time you'll queue as one of the for tank jobs.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I'm calling you toxic because you endorsed griefing the entire party. You should try to handle the situation, and then ask them not to do it again. Maliciously obstructing the entire remainder of the party to punish one person is absolutely toxic behaviour.

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I see and pulling a pack on your own without saying anything is not griefing or toxic behaviour of any kind at all then? Even though it can cause a wipe? This is the act of some angel who only wants to bestow a wonderful combat experience upon us lesser beings who have no right to know what they want to do even if it affects the whole group? Right, sorry for misunderstanding. I'll go back in to my "your wish is my command" box.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's not uncommon to outpace the tank if they decide to stop for 2 GCDs to establish threat. I frequently manage to get ahead of the tank while playing WHM.

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Sure yea this happens. Still haven't ever seen anyone not notice that the tanked stopped though.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Wall-to-wall is standard in all of the current endgame dungeons, aside from perhaps the final pull of amenesis which most parties seem to communicate about before attempting (and most seem to do it anyway).
Also, people have absolutely been trying to justify single pulling throughout this thread.

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When I talk about pulling an extra pack...I literally mean exactly that regardless of what is being tanked already. I have experienced quite a few wipes because some dolt decided we had to play the way they wanted but we weren't deserving of any kind of warning. And I have seen this happen when the tank already pulled more than one pack. People who pull extra packs aren't all exceptionally sensible creatures who can't make a bad call. I've even see players with horrifically bad dps pull extra packs.

What I want from people isn't much. I just want someone to say "can you please pull more?" or say "I am going to pull more" instead of saying literally nothing, going off on their own to pull a pack, and expect people to just be okay with them forcing the group to deal with it. But apparently wanting basic manners is too much, and not wanting to give in to the whims of someone who acts as if the group exists only for their desires makes me a toxic person.

So in short in order to not be seen as toxic I have to be a doormat. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I see and pulling a pack on your own without saying anything is not griefing or toxic behaviour of any kind at all then? Even though it can cause a wipe? This is the act of some angel who only wants to bestow a wonderful combat experience upon us lesser beings who have no right to know what they want to do even if it affects the whole group? Right, sorry for misunderstanding. I'll go back in to my "your wish is my command" box.

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Pulling extra mobs isn't inherently obstructive and is typically done because the person thinks the party is capable of handling the situation and it will increase the efficiency of the run. The intent isn't malicious, they're not doing it with the explicit purpose of harming someone else. Rather, that's what you're doing when you decide to wipe the party because you're upset.

And for the record, I'm not endorsing people pulling for the tank. I'm arguing against literal griefing being an acceptable response.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

When I talk about pulling an extra pack...I literally mean exactly that regardless of what is being tanked already. I have experienced quite a few wipes because some dolt decided we had to play the way they wanted but we weren't deserving of any kind of warning. And I have seen this happen when the tank already pulled more than one pack. People who pull extra packs aren't all exceptionally sensible creatures who can't make a bad call. I've even see players with horrifically bad dps pull extra packs.

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Sure, I've also seen misguided DPS do this. It doesn't mean that maliciously griefing the party is a justified response.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

What I want from people isn't much. I just want someone to say "can you please pull more?" or say "I am going to pull more" instead of saying literally nothing, going off on their own to pull a pack, and expect people to just be okay with them forcing the group to deal with it. But apparently wanting basic manners is too much, and not wanting to give in to the whims of someone who acts as if the group exists only for their desires makes me a toxic person.

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It's okay to dislike people doing this. It's okay to express that you don't like people doing this. It is not okay to intentionally grief the entire party because you're upset about it. If you do everything you can to recover the pull, and you still wipe, ask the DPS to stop or just initiate a votekick. Wanting 'basic manners' is fine. Griefing because someone doesn't have them is not fine. There are ways to address the situation without risking your account.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So in short in order to not be seen as toxic I have to be a doormat. Got it.

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This is actually a widely held notion that is worthy of criticism on FFXIV, but I don't think it applies to this particular situation.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Lol this is hilarious.

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I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

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I have run past so many tanks it's not even funny.

There are normal pulls in level cap dungeons. All of them currently are full pulls even though many only consist of two packs. The only debatable area of any level 80 dungeon where I can say I've seen people split things up with any regularity (and by that I mean like more than a handful of times) is the final pull in Anemesis (sp?) Anyder. Everything else is so standardized.

I don't tank experts, I tend to heal them because dead weight healers bother me more than anything, and I've had plenty of stuff aggro on me because a tank decided they wanted to break from the norm and stop at a single pack. I also understand that that is their norm and that if they're only tanking they aren't seeing the pulls other tanks are making. I don't freak out on them for me having threat for a bit... but you bet that I expect they catch on up and grab the things off of me.

Single pulls aren't normal to most players. Some people on the forums may exist in a bubble where they are but that's an extreme about as uncommon as bleeding edge raiders. The majority of people exist in the middle and that level of play is good enough to clear 2+ packs at a time even if it isn't going lightning fast.

Please, anyone, point out where someone claimed that everyone needed Savage+ dps and everything needed to be done in 12 minutes or disband? This is a meme argument and not one that is even humorous. Press your AoE buttons, grab enough to make AoE worth it and get through the content. It isn't hard.