Paladin Updates

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

Cover Testing (1.21a)
- Lasts 15 seconds on a 60 second recast timer
- Requires you to be 8 or less yalms from target, but direction does not matter
- Range to use Cover itself is larger than 8 yalms (seems like range of voke)
- Forces shift in "hate list" when within 8 yalms so redirects all attacks, including magical to you
- Always lasts the 15 sec duration (multiple hits) (mis-translation on English client?)
- If multiple mobs are on the cover target, redirects ALL the mobs

AF Body Cover Enhancment
- AF Body "Enhances Cover" gives 25% damage taken to MP return
- Works on both physical damage and magic damage
- Works even if you cover a target without hate. Think of it like Sanguine Rite.
- The MP recovery does NOT show up in the log like Sanguine Rite does.

Have fun.

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Thanks for this. Nice to know some of the specifics on the ability and body.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

This is simply incorrect. This just comes down to player skill and know-how. Some Paladins just don't know what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

I don't know what kind of Paladin's you're partying with, but holding hate isn't the problem at all. Not by a long shot.

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you won't hold hate with the people i play with. money back guarantee.

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Originally Posted by ejiboo

you won't hold hate with the people i play with. money back guarantee.

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I addressed that on the last page after some other replies:

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Originally Posted by Phobos

With the update, we can hold hate pretty well, though I still see some people who seem intelligent enough saying WAR can still do it better. I have not seen this personally yet, though I'll concede that the average WAR holds hate better than the average PLD. To hold hate on PLD you need to be doing a lot of work.

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I just haven't come across DD's good enough I suppose. Damn PUG's...

Still though, I'd rather the whole WAR being able to stay alive easier than PLD thing be addressed first as even if enmity is an issue, what's the point of PLD if it dies easier?

Now knowing the effect on the Gallant Surcoat, the Cover update is far better than I originally thought.

Divine Veil + Outmaneuver + Cover = MP resolved.

So thinking more on the issues with just Paladin, this is what I'd propose:

1. More HP. Paladin doesn't need more HP than Warrior, that's part of a Warrior's strength. However, Paladin should be brought within 2-300 HP of Warrior, 1k is ridiculous.

2. Block damage mitigation. Blocks should matter, for both physical and magical attacks. I'd be happy if a full block was brought in line with a partial parry for frontal attacks.

3. Block rate increase. Not a drastic increase, what with the new Divine Veil but one that would be noticeable at least. This would give the shield an actual defensive purpose and would make the statement "Paladin = less dmg taken" true for once.

That info on the Gallant Surcoat is interesting, I'd use cover more in light of that. However this info should have been made more readily available, especially if you're trying to get people to go back to using it.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

So thinking more on the issues with just Paladin, this is what I'd propose:

1. More HP. Paladin doesn't need more HP than Warrior, that's part of a Warrior's strength. However, Paladin should be brought within 2-300 HP of Warrior, 1k is ridiculous.

2. Block damage mitigation. Blocks should matter, for both physical and magical attacks. I'd be happy if a full block was brought in line with a partial parry for frontal attacks.

3. Block rate increase. Not a drastic increase, what with the new Divine Veil but one that would be noticeable at least. This would give the shield an actual defensive purpose and would make the statement "Paladin = less dmg taken" true for once.

That info on the Gallant Surcoat is interesting, I'd use cover more in light of that. However this info should have been made more readily available, especially if you're trying to get people to go back to using it.

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I would indeed like to see this...
SE loves to go from one extreme to another... Blocking used to be heavily OP.... now it is severely UP......

This entire thread of arguing one way and the other when the bottom line is blocking needs to be improved

Well as for the Cover info, I indeed did some tests. We went to do some level 50 faction leves. We did them all : Wolf, Buffalo, Drake. Did about 10 fights. First fight we were 3 (PLD (me), WAR and WHM), then after we had one WHM, me, and the 3 others rotated between DRG, WAR, MNK and BLM. Not once did we have a BRD.

Guess what ? I'm happy to say I never ran out of MP. Cover works exactly like Kaeko says. MP returns works even if I'm not covering someone with hate. I only have to activate the ability. Phobos is also right to mention using Divine Veil + Outmaneuver to help, however I used it outside of Cover… The AF body gives you 25% of damage into MP… guess what happens if you block ? That's right, reduced damage, therefore reduced MP returns. Hence why I used Divine Veil + Outmaneuver outside of Cover.

And I suppose I also had crappy DDs if I'm to believe what was said above… because guess what ? I focused on main bosses on all fights, and kept hate. :P Wasn't able to keep all the lesser mobs though… Steel Cyclone is, after all, one hell of a fantastic ability. lol

I could afford the luxury of spamming Stoneskin on myself and even heal with Holy Succor. By the time we were done, I asked myself "What's a BRD ?" ;)

Granted, this is just one example, and I certainly will still admit that WAR is better suited for a dungeon speed-run. Its higher HP is also a better safety net of bosses' powerful magical attacks that do over 2500 of damage. I certainly had fun testing it though.

had a hate hold compition with a LS WAR who also thinks WAR is a better tank. We got to the princess, Initially I got hate and kept it, all my abilites were on cool down after she built enough tp and stole hate. after about 4 minutes i finally (slowly) got it back , but i did get it back and at that point she was un able to take hate back. Also side note , in the 4 minutes she had hate, WHMs (2 of em) ran out of mp with a bard using mp songs to counter. The biggest advantage i had in that fight was my gear (and obvious knowledge of the job). with gear I have 757 def, 3600 somthin hp and 300 somthin vit. she had on full AF WAR.
I would agrue , from what I saw, WAR dose in fact need a 1k boost over PLD , they are that squeshy. Now what would happen with WAR in my gear? not sure, I have equiped my WAR in my Cobalt gear, HP is only 300 higher then that of PLD, and i only equiped hate on my belt, only has +8 cuz my belt is HQ and didnt wana risk blowing it up. Will give WAR props on hate control over damage dealing. But the strain on the WHMs are certainly noticeable. Also I noticed all the buffs that war did prior to a tp move, tbh , that seems a bit harder to orgistrate over doing PLD moves.
And to clear up some trollers mis informing, I am NOT one sided on this issue, I do think war is a valuable tank, in its proper enviorment. I however do not belive WAR is the best tank and PLD is useless. Best I can fiugre out is people are trolling or they are trying to convice other and possable SE that PLD is still broke in order to possably OP PLD. Best advice I could give SE is , Rather then having 3 or 4 hate moves just combine the amount of hate of all moves into one. Makes action managment alot easier but other then that I think PLD is perfectly fine and competes very well with war on all fronts of tanking.
I did notice somone mention "Its not the question if PLD can replace WAR but can PLD replace a WHM to allow space in the PT for more DD?" Answer is, in some fights, yes. With a good healer and PLD who knows the class, you can have one healer in the DH oger fight, Ifrit, Princess fight, pretty much ALL the HNM fights and any normal party grind. A well equiped and decently knowledged PLD can solo tank 10-15 lvl 50-57 mobs with pretty much no heals aside from blowover from AOE heals or Regen.

sorry for the long message.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

had a hate hold compition with a LS WAR who also thinks WAR is a better tank. We got to the princess, Initially I got hate and kept it, all my abilites were on cool down after she built enough tp and stole hate. after about 4 minutes i finally (slowly) got it back , but i did get it back and at that point she was un able to take hate back. Also side note , in the 4 minutes she had hate, WHMs (2 of em) ran out of mp with a bard using mp songs to counter. The biggest advantage i had in that fight was my gear (and obvious knowledge of the job). with gear I have 757 def, 3600 somthin hp and 300 somthin vit. she had on full AF WAR.

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To which I reply:

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Would just like to add, soo this thread dosent go the way of others, if your gona post "facts" about this subject, could you provide sufficient evidance to support your theory? just claims alone are not only mis leading but often spark useless debate the essentualy serves no purpose other then to make people feel smarter then they realy are. Fraps, parse, or even discription of the abilties you talk about would be great to help keep this discusion literal and not " well WAR just FEELS like a better tank" or "I can tank the world solo on my PLD". not my thread just asking that people post responsably not just whaty THEY experianced and have no way to back it.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I would agrue , from what I saw, WAR dose in fact need a 1k boost over PLD , they are that squeshy.

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They take nearly the same amount of damage. The difference isn't large enough to be noteworthy at the moment, because WAR HP kinda nullifies the difference.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Now what would happen with WAR in my gear? not sure, I have equiped my WAR in my Cobalt gear, HP is only 300 higher then that of PLD, and i only equiped hate on my belt, only has +8 cuz my belt is HQ and didnt wana risk blowing it up.

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May I see a screenshot of your PLD's HP with your cobalt equipped, then a screen of your WAR with the same cobalt equipped?

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Will give WAR props on hate control over damage dealing. But the strain on the WHMs are certainly noticeable. Also I noticed all the buffs that war did prior to a tp move, tbh , that seems a bit harder to orgistrate over doing PLD moves.

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You can't be serious... PLD has much more to it when it comes to skill orchestration and I highly doubt even the WARs are going to argue with that.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

And to clear up some trollers mis informing, I am NOT one sided on this issue, I do think war is a valuable tank, in its proper enviorment. I however do not belive WAR is the best tank and PLD is useless. Best I can fiugre out is people are trolling or they are trying to convice other and possable SE that PLD is still broke in order to possably OP PLD. Best advice I could give SE is , Rather then having 3 or 4 hate moves just combine the amount of hate of all moves into one. Makes action managment alot easier but other then that I think PLD is perfectly fine and competes very well with war on all fronts of tanking.

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Nobody here is trying to OP PLD. There is currently a legitimate problem with PLD being able to perform on an ideal level. First of all, defense is near useless. At the moment, greater HP is better than higher DEF. Secondly, PLD has almost no difference in MDEF compared to WAR. PLD brings less damage to the table, and can't AoE damage.

PLD does NOT compete with WAR on all fronts of tanking. I feel a lot of WAR's strengths are lost on single targets, but it still has the greater HP to survive attacks that DEF does not help PLD with. Which is almost all attacks. Is PLD capable of tanking multiple targets? Of course it is. But that does NOT mean that WAR isn't currently better for that job.

Also, you want all hate from all abilities condensed into one ability? Are you stupid?

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I did notice somone mention "Its not the question if PLD can replace WAR but can PLD replace a WHM to allow space in the PT for more DD?" Answer is, in some fights, yes. With a good healer and PLD who knows the class, you can have one healer in the DH oger fight, Ifrit, Princess fight, pretty much ALL the HNM fights and any normal party grind. A well equiped and decently knowledged PLD can solo tank 10-15 lvl 50-57 mobs with pretty much no heals aside from blowover from AOE heals or Regen.

sorry for the long message.

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50-57 is a huge gap, and the difficulty difference in that gap is fairly large. I can solo level 59 Diremites with relative ease. I may be able to take two of them. Three? Unlikely.

A two level difference from your max, but I would love to see some video proof of you solo tanking 10-15 level 57 mobs.

dang, wish now i frapsed all those 40-50 PLs >< lvl 57 mobs in natalan anywhere from 10-15 of em, and thats before pld lmfao, realy dude, I shouldnt even respond to you, you dont seem near my level yet you talk like you are better then me. At least I give people benifit of a doubt when it comes to their actual skill level but then again your little picture up there should been a dead give away. Owell.