The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

I can't comment on the WHM nin thing. I get annoyed by rage timers and dps checks died to them so many times on other mmos but i would never ask for their removal because i agree that part of the incentive to get better is to want to. " 'my' drop is beyond this boss, but to get there i have to get past this one. So i need to get better." Or alternatively, i really, really want my revenge on <insert boss here>

I do partially agree that dps don't want the responsibility. I dps more than anything now because i don't want to have to youtube every dungeon and raid, for days, to learn every fight, every shortcut and every sneaky trash ability no-one tells you about. I mainly dps because i don't want to "have" to know the abilities of jobs i don't even play.

Because the game now has a pedigree, tanks are "expected" to know all this, even if they are a completely new player.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Here's the truth; this game is made, by the devs, to encourage as much dps as possible. This is largely as a result of enrage timers and other dps checks.

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Completely disagree, enrage is there because of how easy it is to recover after major mistakes and keep going. While you can make few mistakes, too many should not carry you to a win, that's the purpose behind enrage and why it is staying.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

They also need to stop giving more and more enmity reduction skills to every class.
Every single caster and healer has access to two through cross role actions which is pretty absurd right there, and every physical class has access to at least one with most of them having a second one specific to their class.
This practically begs the tank to hyper focus on dps.
After all, why should the tank worry about enmity when everyone else can do that for him and without sacrificing anyone's damage?
This is completely backwards logic towards a role.

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Nope they should give them more and directly implement it into the skills so the lazy people use emnity reduction without pressing a button.
Healers have Lucid Dreaming and thats it, nice try.
Tanks can only focus on dps if the party lets him and thats rarely the case if said tank does duties with randoms. There is also nothing wrong with tanks that have their focus on dps if they are doing mechanics right because emnity is the job of the whole party and not just the job of the tank.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Sounds to me like tanks don't want tank anymore but dps. Find it pretty bad all time when use my 2 skills to lower enmity that have long cd and still have all monsters charge after me when using a spell to attack all mobs that tank pulled into a huge group. Lost count how many times have died and group wipe from it. Doesn't matter if tanks quit being tanks still going to have very long queues when get moved to new datacenter. Heard eu already getting them like 45 minute queue for potd.

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Bad players =/= an entire job design.

Even if DPS checks were less lenient tank and healer players would still want to maximize their DPS in stuff, anyway.

If you want tanks to tank and healers to heal, you'd need to remove OGCD mitigation and healing from the game. Or make spikier, random, damage intake. Like auto's that can crit for half your health bar (so, 50k if factoring in stuff like Defiance Bonus, or 35k ~ 40k if not).

But sitting on a boss in tank stance the entire time is about as interesting as saying "Tanks just have permanent threat and can't lose it" which kinda removes an entire mechanic from the role. And if mitigation is just passives with spike damage being dealt with by the stance itself and healers, then that's even less work.

The way things are currently is more interesting, at least. It forces players who want to sit in their DPS stance to understand and maximize their CD's, or die (and how to manage threat with their party + threat combos or openers + Damage types + DPS output as that generates threat). It'd be like if I said all DPS should have 2 button rotations because the vast majority of them don't know how to push their combos correctly. It just punishes the people who enjoy improving and prefer to think about the multitude of things they could've done differently to then improve the next run with.

Either way, enrage timers or no, people would still try to maximize their damage output. Even in WoW, where being a tank is pretty much braindead in terms of keeping mitigation running and holding threat, people still work to maximize damage output on those tanks because... there's literally nothing else to do when you have a fight on farm, and it keeps the re-clearing interesting. But it's a little more fun to feel like the damage is worthwhile, and be able to learn how to safely push it.

But in the example you presented of players playing the game poorly, that'll just... be a thing no matter what happens. And it's not a symptom of tank design here, when in titles like WoW and even RIFT back when, tanks did the same thing and made the same mistakes (losing threat by not using their AoE and tagging everything, not using what passive mitigation they have since they're not understanding their priority system, using non-threat generating abilities on a pull etc...).

Without enrage timer and general DPS check, the role would not be DPS, but DD, which I'm fine with, but I think it's more fun if there is a standard that you are held to so you can tell that your party is at least doing well and not just the bare minimum. Without an official support for damage parser, a DPS check is a good way to know your party should be doing much better in terms of doing mechanics and dealing damage.

With that said, I am more in favor of DPS checks where the fight gets progressively harder the longer you're taking to beat it instead of a hard time limit where the fight just ends.

If enrage timer had to disappear, then maybe adding the damage buff caused by a death will be the thing to have like it was the case for Quickthinx and Brute Justice in Midas Savage.

man, I had really hoped this thread had died. I was once one of the only surviving DPS in a 25min long Construct 7 fight. People just died every time they were ressed until people just stopped trying. Fights need MORE enrage timers and players have to accept you can't smash your face into your keyboard and expect to clear stuff. I'm not saying we need super tight enrage timers...just SOMETHING. A fight that has average DPS is expected to be cleared in 11-12 minutes? give it an enrage at 14-15mins. That's being very considerate.

I see absolutely no reason why tanks and healers can't have DPS burst windows tailored to enrage timers.
That doesn't mean tanks and healers need to optimise their DPS 100% of the time, just during DPS checks.

This is what tank/dps stance is meant for, it's mean to be something you switch between as the situation calls for it.
Enrage timers being burst DPS checks are an entirely separate issue from 'the meta striving for peak DPS at all times.'

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I see absolutely no reason why tanks and healers can't have DPS burst windows tailored to enrage timers.
That doesn't mean tanks and healers need to optimise their DPS 100% of the time, just during DPS checks.

This is what tank/dps stance is meant for, it's mean to be something you switch between as the situation calls for it.
Enrage timers being burst DPS checks are an entirely separate issue from 'the meta striving for peak DPS at all times.'

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this sort of exists in a way, from what I understand. I dont tank/heal in savage content, but all of the damage going coming out is 100% predictable, so the tanks and healers I know know when its safe to go full DPS and not use cooldowns or heal at all. the only "situations" where things change is when someone fudges up a mechanic and extra healing is required, or a res.

I think we need to give the bosses chance to do direct crit auto attacks, that will kill a tank if they're not at 100% health. (so if their HP is 60'000 for example, it would do 59'999 damage, killing them even at full health if not in tank stance), and reduce enmity gains in DPS stance by 99% (perhaps make it so every attack they do in DPS stance reduces enmity). Make enmity actually have to be managed and you'll be able to reduce time in DPS stance. Enmity is literally given to tanks on a silver platter (even in DPS stance!), which is why most spend so long in DPS stance. Same for healers, our heals are so stupidly powerful that we're able to spend more time DPSing. I think I remember someone doing a Xelphatol run where their Regen and oGCD heals were enough to keep people alive, meaning they did something like 99% casts being damage spells. That would also need changing. Stop giving heals and enmity on a silver platter, and then we can spend more time healing.