Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I feel this cleric stance is an issue. This is a social game where everyones opinion should matter. I dont like to see posts that imply that if you cannot do what someone else can do then you are not good enough to play the game or somethin. Content is meant to be a team effort, if a healer feelsits not safe then they should not feel pressured to, which is akind of bullying.

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The majority of us who say people who don't use Cleric's Stance are lazy aren't referring to hardcore content while you're still learning and/or undergeared. If you don't feel it's SAFE to DPS, then don't. However, the issue with just getting rid of Cleric's Stance entirely and not allowing healers to DPS AT ALL, is that for the vast majority of content in the game it's not difficult to get to a gear level where you can toss a few regens (or let Eos handle it for SCHs) and literally just /sit for the rest of the fight.

Every time I see a player say "A healer's job is to heal, so if the party survives they did their job" I cringe. Healer is literally the only job in the game where a significant portion of the playerbase feels you're doing fine if you jerked off for most of the fight rather than actually played the game.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

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So you actually think it is okay for 1 player to be dead weight? Alright.

Seems weird that it's only okay if it's the healer though.

You cannot really compare what a dps or a tank needs to do with a healer because they dont have such a tight window to get it right or wipe the party. Also many classes dont have around 35 spells the have to manage ( including pet) Always you get the comments "You can do it if you try". Fine, I do try as hard as I can, but it still is abig expectation that everyone can actually pull it off, in all instances whether the group is good or not.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

So you actually think it is okay for 1 player to be dead weight? Alright.

Seems weird that it's only okay if it's the healer though.

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I'll happily take a one minute longer duty with a healer that doesn't dps but keeps the party healthy over a healer that enjoys an aggravating dance a hairs breadth from death. There's nothing enjoyable about surviving on fumes, struggling to stay alive with last ditch clemencies/Bloodbath because the healer is more concern about his DPS meter then he is about actually doing his damn job.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I'll happily take a one minute longer duty with a healer that doesn't dps but keeps the party healthy over a healer that enjoys an aggravating dance a hairs breadth from death. There's nothing enjoyable about surviving on fumes, struggling to stay alive with last ditch clemencies/Bloodbath because the healer is more concern about his DPS meter then he is about actually doing his damn job.

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I don't think you understand the arguments towards healer DPS. I did Gubal hard yesterday as a SCH, and during the first boss I realised something. The PLD was in SwO and I was in cleric stance 95% of the fight. Do you know how much healing I did? Two lustrates. Now Imagine if I had only healed that fight, and not thrown out any DPS.

No, I'm not a superstar raid healer, in fact my healing is fairly mediocre and I play it safe a lot, but I know why healer DPS is important.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I'll happily take a one minute longer duty with a healer that doesn't dps but keeps the party healthy over a healer that enjoys an aggravating dance a hairs breadth from death. There's nothing enjoyable about surviving on fumes, struggling to stay alive with last ditch clemencies/Bloodbath because the healer is more concern about his DPS meter then he is about actually doing his damn job.

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The real question is when you consider something last ditch.
Clemency when you have 8000 HP left? Waste.

Bloodbath should never even be used as a last ditch effort, you use it as a sustain self heal when your damage CDs are up.

I let tanks drop to 4000 hp and less voluntarily while DPSing as an AST to get the most of my Essential Dignity.
A healer doesnt need to keep you 100% topped all the time, thats not his job. He has to keep your HP to a point where it's always more than zero.

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Originally Posted by Jaeifer

The real question is when you consider something last ditch.
Clemency when you have 8000 HP left? Waste.

Bloodbath should never even be used as a last ditch effort, you use it as a sustain self heal when your damage CDs are up.

I let tanks drop to 4000 hp and less voluntarily while DPSing as an AST to get the most of my Essential Dignity.
A healer doesnt need to keep you 100% topped all the time, thats not his job. He has to keep your HP to a point where it's always more than zero.

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Try 1k or less HP. More often then not I wind up with my casts going off at my last 1%-.5% of my HP remaining and bloodbath is always kept on CD so I can get as much self healing as possible out of it. I have absolutely no faith in dps healers, as all the ones I've come across were more interested in dpsing than keeping people in a 'not dead' state.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Try 1k or less HP. More often then not I wind up with my casts going off at my last 1%-.5% of my HP remaining and bloodbath is always kept on CD so I can get as much self healing as possible out of it. I have absolutely no faith in dps healers, as all the ones I've come across were more interested in dpsing than keeping people in a 'not dead' state.

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If they let you drop that low and there's no heal from the healers at the moment you self-healed yourself then they're just bad, point given.
But then it becomes a matter of not generalizing that to every DPSing healer.

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Originally Posted by FabricioRF

Cleric Stance is fine as is. It sorts out the good healers from the bad ones.

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Yeah. . . .In A12 a SCH doomed the raid because he thought HE was more fit to go into the orb than the DRK who's never died, stealling the orb from her. At the time the WHM was recovering from having been killed twice and the new DRG was dead when the orbs showed up. Guess who we kicked. HINT: It wasn't the WHM.

Back before AST received their first buff, A4: parsing prick never got out of cleric, caused two wipes as we all found out too late he never once made an attempt to heal. So we had to spill all our songs and efforts to make sure the underpowered AST carried the useless, leeching WHM who stayed in cleric stance. Numbers look fine the WHM said. Guess who we all reported. The WHM.

Vs. Kraken, never topped us off, it grabs him, killing him, dooming the party. Yes it ended with a wipe.

Vs. A11, So urgent to attack, yet when Photon happens, let's drag our feet with the healing, and neither of them were ASTs. This happened in 6 separate parties that month.

Vs. A4, Eager to eat orbs and strike the Manipulator, but now we gotta do this all over again because none of you were quick to heal, even yourselves. So congratulations for being "good" healers, but actually be GOOD healers this time.

Vs. Final Steps. . . .~"Clearly" the beginning was no indication about what's to come later~. Just like A11, there was no urgency in the healing.

Aurum Vale, quick to attack, never quick to heal, was unable to pull extra and eventually unable to pull anything. We had to kick that loser, get a new COMPETENT healer and things were infinitely better.

Vs. Steps, Wanna explain how both healers, who've been under the giant dragon boss this whole time, let everyone die to the poison?

Vs. A8, What's that? You claim to be great just because you attack as heals but you cannot handle a tank buster without us tank switching when everyone here has not been tank swapping since Day 1??? Protip: Get good with healing first.

Vs. Dungeon, How do you except us to think your good if you have no clue how to do the DPS part right? Why are you using stella? Why aren't you using Holy?? Why aren't you aiming for the hornet or number 1 for that matter??? And most importantly WHY is using HoTs to prolong your time to attack a difficult concept for you!?!?!?

Vs. PotD, Dude you're over level 18/40 and I've been pacified for 30 seconds. This has happened multiple times now. If you wanna make this faster then cure the pacification/silence first! And come here as a DPS if your just going to sit there and do NOTHING but ATTACK! Freakin' wasting everyone's time pulling this garbage.

Vs. PotD, What's that? Your complaining that because tank is pull things 3 or 5 at a time, it forces you to HEAL? Are you not aware of what you came here as? Why are you a healer? And I swear if the answer has nothing to do with learning.

And there's many more, but guess what these 'good' healers all have in common. =D
HINT: Try guessing Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

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You're over generalizing a bit. I know when i dps I'll always weave in heals if the tank refuses to use any defensive CD for whatever reason after a big pull. At the same time I would use celestial opposition to extend light speed for Gravity spams. With this alone im able to spam 2 gravity's before the stun wears off on all the mobs and then some until the tanks hp is rapidly going down the halfway mark. (Depending on the tanks gear and the rate of their hp decreasing I may continue to clear the mobs until their hp is 35%.)

If your hp was really 1k or less in 60 content pulls. You'd be dead before the healer would react, unless your taking HP loss at an extremely low rate by some miracle. (HG + regens)

To give you some insight as to why we healers like to add in some DPS when we can. It's the same exact reason why you tanks bother to use GCD, despite the healers capabilities to keep you alive without them. You lower the HPS requirement on our part, which in turn gives us time to DPS.

Now if you truly wan't a healer to not have the time to DPS. Don't use your GCD then. You may understand this point after the party asks you why you aren't using your GCD.