What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

I went in suspicious of Hydaelyn but liked Venat in Elpis right up to the point she kicks us out having already made her choice.

I don't like having writers try to gaslight us into believing her choice was moral or heroic (a Herois minion?) nor did I enjoy having my WoL implicated in it (potentially twice depending how the player views their Azem) and shown as unthinkingly agreeing with that choice when there were other options. That took all player agency over the WoL away when they could have just as easily given players the choice how to respond as they do in other situations.

Having the scions immediately drop any questions and appear tempered to Hydaelyn when before some were written to question things more, it felt very forced and broke any emotional bonds I had towards those characters.

I doubt that is what the writers wanted to portray, but that's how some of us felt. I wish I could have enjoyed Endwalker, and there were parts I did but being told that a genocidal serial liar is heroic is way to far from my comfort zone and honestly disappointing in a game that had previously dealt with grey morality very well (imo).

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I can't say I'd ever spent more than 30 seconds thinking about Hydaelyn at any point prior to EW, she was just that boring to me. I didn't particularly like or dislike her though I did find some of the shenanigans she pulled such as everything to do with Minfillia and being evasive about the nature of both herself and the Ascians/Zodiark to be highly questionable.

I didn't go into EW expecting to find that she was a villain but by god did they manage to make her one, in my eyes at least. The constant gaslighting made me dislike her even more because I very much abhorred being told that she was very right and everyone else was very wrong and that was that. Now here, adventurer, take your Herois minion, she died for you, don't you love her?

That Herois minion was my final breaking point after all that gaslighting. I regret mindlessly cleaning my inventory and clicking it.

I've head-cannoned that my WoL sees Hydalen as a villain and realises that minion is too dangerous to allow others near but could be potentially useful at some point, so she keeps it safely out of sight. At least until it begins wandering the personal island I guess. :/ I've also tried head-cannoning that the scions are indeed tempered and my WoL could potentially untemper them with the porxie mount, but has chosen to leave them as is for now so they don't also suffer disillusionment.

Messily head-cannoning all this to try to justify why my WoL just nods, seems to adore Hydaelyn and carries her minion is ridiculous, but that's where I'm at with this story now.

What I'd give to be able to delete that minion!

Lurkers shouldn't feel anxious, we love new people joining in the conversation!

As for Hydaelyn, I never liked her starting from the intro cutscene in ARR. I'm just not into the creepy 'mother' goddess thing, especially as it usually doesn't turn out well. I was thrilled to find out the Echo had nothing to do with her and was something innate to the WoL (as well as losing the BoL in HW not having a noticeable effect) because I felt like her involvement detracted from our accomplishments. Only for them to retcon the benefits of the Echo onto the Blessing of Light in EW. -_-

I thought Hydaelyn telling Minfilia to kill herself (and her agreeing!) was messed up, worse when she showed up later as a puppet. Everyone being bizarrely cool with all of that has always been unsettling. Thancred especially turns stupid whenever Minfilia is involved. "Hydaelyn's a primal who's responsible for Minfilia's death? Well, if Minfilia trusted her then so do I!" /slap :P

I doubt I'll ever come to terms with her being worse than I could've possibly imagined while simultaneously being depicted as the Best Person Ever.

I have such mixed feelings about how a lot of people seem to assume this thread consists of naught but baseless Venat/Hydaelyn hatred judging from the silly tags they continue slapping on it whilst refusing to actually involve themselves in discussion.

It's like they think that disliking the character means you automatically approve of the Ascians' actions which is such a hilariously bad take that it almost sounds like trolling, but I've seen enough weird opinions from people in the community to think it's probably genuine.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I have such mixed feelings about how a lot of people seem to assume this thread consists of naught but baseless Venat/Hydaelyn hatred judging from the silly tags they continue slapping on it whilst refusing to actually involve themselves in discussion.

It's like they think that disliking the character means you automatically approve of the Ascians' actions which is such a hilariously bad take that it almost sounds like trolling, but I've seen enough weird opinions from people in the community to think it's probably genuine.

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Eh, its more being critical of micro-portion of a larger troubled whole gets tiresome. On a macro level I agree with sentiment that EW was not well conceived or executed, but I like seeing critique of the whole rather than one character alot of posters in this thread fixate on. Also, I take issue with the heaps of praise ShB gets in this thread when it is what caused EW to take the direction it did.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I have such mixed feelings about how a lot of people seem to assume this thread consists of naught but baseless Venat/Hydaelyn hatred judging from the silly tags they continue slapping on it whilst refusing to actually involve themselves in discussion.

It's like they think that disliking the character means you automatically approve of the Ascians' actions which is such a hilariously bad take that it almost sounds like trolling, but I've seen enough weird opinions from people in the community to think it's probably genuine.

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I wouldn't let something like those tags bother you, it's just extreme immaturity at work.

Would it not be a good idea to come up with some of our own tags that actually reflect the discussion rather than just endure the labels people who disagree with us (or haven't even bothered to read) slap on the thread?

Venat is the key component that makes much of Endwalker make very little sense from a consistent narrative perspective. The inclusion of time travel, power of friendship and other controversial tropes were not introduced due to the Ancients as a whole but specifically in an attempt to try and excuse Venat of any and all blame for what she is ultimately responsible for.

Furthermore - and as has been pointed out many times throughout this very thread - anyone who dared to speak up in favour of the game's antagonists within this community have long been told they're bad people or even sent death threats for 'supporting genocide' due to the Ascians.

Incidentally by some of the very same posters who rush to champion Hydaelyn and insist, unironically, that 'mommy' did nothing wrong.

I'm primarily a Garlean fan myself, though since we lost out on a proper Garlean expansion its the Ancients who interest me the most right now. I'd note that there's a stark difference. Nobody is saying that anyone has to like the Ancients or Emet and yet there's this utterly bizarre double standard where gaslighting comes into play if someone dares to dislike or criticise Venat.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

I wouldn't let something like those tags bother you, it's just extreme immaturity at work.

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Agreed. You can also see who added which tag by hovering over each tag in question.

Even Emet and Elisibus got used the same way the Scions did. Constantly brought back from the dead to make plot happen, yet no one critiques those instances. I agree that dead characters need to stay dead to have weight to their deaths, but that stance needs to be applied across the board. Also ShB, by introducing the Ancient and the concept of the current being only 12,000 years removed from the current makes the current races evolution make little sense. It also unveiled too much and over explained what should have been left ambiguous.

There's been plenty of criticism as to how Emet and Elidibus were handled at times, though. It's also a fantasy game at the end of the day, so the inclusion of fantastical elements and races doesn't bother me or many others. It's more so a matter of what is done with them.

To say nothing of the fact that many of us posting here are European or at least fond of European fantasy...so, yeah, having Greek fantasy elements in play is appreciated even if some do not enjoy them by their own admission.

The reason Shadowbringers is highly praised by many here is because Emet's motivations made sense. He simply sought to undo a tragedy inflicted upon his people and his conflict was pushed as a battle of like wills. Nobody was forced to approve of his actions or even like him, though most people could at least see where he was coming from even if they felt the cost for reversing the tragedy was too high.

Endwalker, however, simply rid the story of much of its grit in favour of bending over backwards to try and present her as having no other choice when it's clearly outlined that she didn't explore every possible option available to her.

Though at this point I'm just pointing out stuff that can easily be seen by browsing the thread itself and reading the feedback being given out.