What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Would anyone here call Ramuh evil? A primal that sought to protect their section of the forest from invaders such as the Garleans or the Adders or the Scions or even us. A primal that only tempered Sylphs as a defensive measure. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the Sylphs, their future is entrusted to us.

Would anyone here call Hydaelyn evil? A primal that sought to protect the thirteen reflection worlds and the source world from the invaders of the Ascians and of Meteion. A primal that only tempered Menphilia as a defensive measure and way to speak with us, eventually giving Menphilia her own will back. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the star and inhabitants, that all those peoples future is entrusted to us.

The WOL? Never tempered. It was just a traveler's ward to protection from aether being corrupted, such as by way of tempering. We always had free will, and the WOL always strived to do good.

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil. Her hubris and her questionable motivations stand on logic with the consistency of sand. Whether she sees herself as such is another matter entirely. Her role is that of a fallen angel who is responsible for a Celestial Schism which saw all of humanity condemned to a world of suffering, and the loss of the equivalent of the Garden of Eden.

There were likely other ways to resolve the Meteion situation, but instead time-travelling-memory-wipes had to be thrown into the mix. For some reason.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Would anyone here call Hydaelyn evil? A primal that sought to protect the thirteen reflection worlds and the source world from the invaders of the Ascians and of Meteion. A primal that only tempered Menphilia as a defensive measure and way to speak with us, eventually giving Menphilia her own will back. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the star and inhabitants, that all those peoples future is entrusted to us.

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Thirteen and one worlds that were "created" at the expense of a people whose culture was wiped out and buried with even the real name of the world hidden. And the Ascians who turned out to be the native inhabitants of said crushed and shattered world, who wanted to correct what they saw as a huge mistake without knowledge of the actual cause. And she had full knowledge this would occur thanks to timeloop chicken/egg paradox. Even then, I don't think anyone argued that her actions didn't benefit the Sundered...

It's basically as dark grey as you can get but is treated pretty much as 'white' by our heroic beneficieries who don't seem to care at all. That sucks, but I got mine!

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil. Her hubris and her questionable motivations stand on logic with the consistency of sand. Whether she sees herself as such is another matter entirely. Her role is that of a fallen angel who is responsible for a Celestial Schism which saw all of humanity condemned to a world of suffering, and the loss of the equivalent of the Garden of Eden.

There were likely other ways to resolve the Meteion situation, but instead time-travelling-memory-wipes had to be thrown into the mix. For some reason.

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By that logic Emet is evil. Eldibius is evil. Hermes is evil. I agree the whole of the ancient plot is bad, and Meteion is the single dumbest character in the whole of 14.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil.

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And the memory wipe was caused by not Hydaylen.

The ascians, a terrorist organization, who killed untold millions of lives across the 13 Reflections AND the Source in a misguided attempt to a free their god. Said imprisoned god, was being used as a shield to keep a thick and dense membrane layer around the source to protect it from Meteion's corrupting influence. That when Zodiark was gone, we saw the effects of what happened, that people transformed into Blasphmies and killed their loved ones and neighbors.

After all, why the worlds are filled with suffering, who helped escalate that into cataclymisc levels? Oh right, the ascians.

Oh and to add to the suffering pile, who made the voidsent and sin eaters? Ascians. Ya know things that wantonly kill others, corrupt people into monstrosties, that these things feed off the aether of living people.

Or hey, who taught the various beast tribes a flawed version of creation magic that would result in the primals summoned in this manner to have a compulsion to assimilate aka temper others? A S C I A N S.

Also said primal summonings were augmented with live sacrifice, that if it weren't beast tribe, we would be talking about human sacrifical rites.

Hey, ya know how an ascian can 'possess' someone and take over their body and rob them of free will? That is a variation of the same tempering magic that is instilled into their primals. That said primals without ascian meddling would be far far far far more benevolent than what we actually encountered.

Or hey even if you want to justify it with Elidibus or Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus, on how you want to have sympathy for them. Its only understandable if you mean the post-mortem versions of them whose souls were cleansed in the astral sea and so they might actually be the proper people they were meant to be rather than what caused the great evils.

Or hey lets go back to Zodiark. Okay lets say the Ascians freed him, the heart was Elidbus and he never got defeated by us. What was their grand plan with Zodiark? Oh you know to sacrifice half the world's population to restore the lives of their people as that is how Zodiark works, sacrifice half of the people to get the desired result. Of more powerful entitys who view the average human, you and me, as flawed and imperfect disgusting things that according to them have no right to exist and are merely mistakes. Of human lives only being viewed as chattel and a thing to be sacrificed later for ascians.

If you think Hydaelyn is still evil after all this, I don't know what to tell you.

Hythlodaeus did nothing wrong.





(unless you count him enabling terrible ideas)

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

If you think Hydaelyn is still evil after all this, I don't know what to tell you.

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She literally caused all of this though. If Venat had told her people what was going on they perhaps could have stopped the final days then and there and there wouldn’t be all of this suffering. She is literally to blame. Also yes, she did cause the memory wipe. We’re literally told and shown this, the sundering mind wiped everyone and it seems to have been entirely intended.She then lied and kept secrets on the origins of the world.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

She literally caused all of this though. If Venat had told her people what was going on they perhaps could have stopped the final days then and there and there wouldn’t be all of this suffering. She is literally to blame. Also yes, she did cause the memory wipe. We’re literally told and shown this, the sundering mind wiped everyone and it seems to have been entirely intended.She then lied and kept secrets on the origins of the world.

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Technically you would have to put that as a fault of the Warrior of Light for telling Venat. As according to us, who was told by Elidibus, we can't change the events of the past if we want to properly return to our timeline. If Venat had done what you wanted her to do, there would be none of the people who currently exist in our timeline. There is no Thancred, no Y'shtola, no Ryne, no Alisaie, no Alphinaud, no Estinien, no Haurchefant, no Ser Aymeric. Among many other people.

And what would happen is you created a branching alternate timeline where the Ascians successfully beat back Meteion, but doomed the main timeline in the process.

Pretty ascian talk if you think that is fine. What with sacrificing all those lives.

And even if people still think Hydaylen is evil because of suffering, news flash, our real world is filled with suffering and its how you actually go about your daily life to trudge through the suffering to actually have a semblance of a pleasant life. Which is what Hydaylen was doing, trudging through all that misery for hope of a better tomorrow.

Yay morality debates this site hasn’t had enough of those right?

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Yay morality debates this site hasn’t had enough of those right?

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Its part and parcel to the story.