Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Can you believe if the 6.0 trailer at some point showed the Viera homeland being invaded and some Garlean Legion capturing a bunch of hooded Viera tryin to escape... but something is odd about one of them. The Garlean officer pushes them to the ground and the hood falls off to reveal to be a male.

The female officer says something about looking at a rare sight, and that she knows how that feels, and tells the soldiers to give that one special treatment... Just as the camera moves up... a female Hroth.

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Is that supposed to be cool? :confused:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Is that supposed to be cool? :confused:

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Yeah and then Yoshi P comes out as the screen freezes, says "Please look forward to it" and then everyone claps.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Is that supposed to be cool? :confused:

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Hmmm...

Yoshi really stoked some flames with that "feel free to have high expectations" comment.

Realistically though what else would he say? "Don't get too excited and expect roughly more of the same, please look forward to it." ?

I hope they can deliver.

The chances of male Viera being announced are just about as likely as $GME hitting 5k a share. Stranger things have happened though.

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Originally Posted by Awha

The chances of male Viera being announced are just about as likely as $GME hitting 5k a share. Stranger things have happened though.

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lol I dont think its that unlikely

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Originally Posted by zeylos

lol I dont think its that unlikely

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Well they did tell us that it was unlikely to happen anytime soon since races take so many resources to make. I believe Yoshi even said that there are no plans for them unless they can figure out a new way to make the races to that they are less intensive.

So it sounds pretty unlikely

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Well they did tell us that it was unlikely to happen anytime soon since races take so many resources to make. I believe Yoshi even said that there are no plans for them unless they can figure out a new way to make the races to that they are less intensive.

So it sounds pretty unlikely

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Eh, we'll see. The 'it's too hard' excuse wears thin when competitors manage to complete bolder projects. WoW is also a much older game but has managed to add new playable races and upgrade its character creation system not once but twice. FFXIV, meanwhile, has claimed that adding stubble as a customisation option for Midlander men - despite using it for promotional footage - is also 'too hard'.

I'd be worried if, by 6.0, such limitations still exist. Is it a possibility? Certainly - but at that point it'd seem the game is deliberately settling for mediocrity on some fronts.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Well they did tell us that it was unlikely to happen anytime soon since races take so many resources to make. I believe Yoshi even said that there are no plans for them unless they can figure out a new way to make the races to that they are less intensive.

So it sounds pretty unlikely

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tbh they have said 'it's too hard' whenever they didnt do something so ppl would stop asking why, I'm keeping my expectations at a minimum regardless of what Yoshi-P said since I doubt myself we will get them, but I don't understand why are so many people apparently convinced it's nearly impossible we get them

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Eh, we'll see. The 'it's too hard' excuse wears thin when competitors manage to complete bolder projects. WoW is also a much older game but has managed to add new playable races and upgrade its character creation system not once but twice. FFXIV, meanwhile, has claimed that adding stubble as a customisation option for Midlander men - despite using it for promotional footage - is also 'too hard'.

I'd be worried if, by 6.0, such limitations still exist. Is it a possibility? Certainly - but at that point it'd seem the game is deliberately settling for mediocrity on some fronts.

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You know what else is wearing pretty thin? The " but WoW" argument. WoW is a different game built on a completely different engine, just because something can be done there doesn't me it can be done here. This game is built on an engine that was made for a completely different type of game while wow is built on an engine made for it. If the dev teams says something is hard to do I going to believe them we all ready know this games code is a mess why is it so hard to believe something may not be as easy as it seems?

It's not impossible for such limitations to be overcome. WoW is but one of various examples of competitors who have completely revamped large elements of their respective game and code. PSO2 is a good example as is ESO. The former completely revamped the graphics to be more in line with modern expectations and the latter has a habit of adding new features with each major patch that bring life to older zones - many of which are quite large.

"It's too hard" might be wearing thin but as was pointed out that's not what they said about this, they said it takes too many resources, which is unfortunate but it's a perfectly valid reason.

Now they may have found a way around it or found the resources to do it and we'll find out soon enough, but something taking too many resources is not nearly as much of a cop-out response as "too hard".

It's probably more honest and candid than most of the reasons they give for why they can't/won't do certain stuff.

The reason they gave was that it would slow their patch schedule, because effectively female viera/male hrothgar were one full race. Male viera/female hrothgar would be another full race. A new race would be a permanent hindrance on future patches, and scheduling, along with whatever else new they have come up with for the expansion. As I have said before, the game may be better off in the long run without them adding the missing genders, and the game seems to be doing more than fine without them. Frankly, I wonder how pushed back our patches would have been after Covid if they had included the missing genders in the first place (two new races).

Male Viera are just practicing social distancing. But from 6 malms.

I hate to chime into the "but WoW" argument but allied races cannot be considered unique and new in the way adding m viera and f hrothgar are. Blizzard was only able to give us so many because they were reusing assets they had already made for the expansion.

"But FFXIV could add them as npcs and then playable as well!"

That is true, however you'll notice that PC models have an astronomically larger pool of animations to code than the average npc gets. NPCs on WoW use the same skeletons and rigs as known races to save time. The pool of animations on WoW is much smaller.

With covid, patches coming in light, and everything else 2020 has thrown at us.. I'd much rather they put off the missing genders for when they have more time and resources. I assume that is what is going to happen anyway, but I'd hate to see them put in Limited Race 2.0 featuring two hairstyles and one face! Please look forward to it.

Truth be told I get it might be a tough pill to swallow, but the cost benefit analysis does not sway in favor of adding them. "Maybe" if they had more dev time and in office hours it might have worked out, but with covid and stuff not seeing it. At this point what logical sense would it make to take on a project that would add to even more delays that must be happening due to covid?

I still hope they add both missing genders... I don't want to give up hope until the announcements on the 5th. If they can't do it because of covid I fear what else will be cut back from the expansion...

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Originally Posted by Starshower

I still hope they add both missing genders... I don't want to give up hope until the announcements on the 5th. If they can't do it because of covid I fear what else will be cut back from the expansion...

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True that is a valid concern. I just hope they prioritize content that services the widest gambit.

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Originally Posted by Starshower

I still hope they add both missing genders... I don't want to give up hope until the announcements on the 5th. If they can't do it because of covid I fear what else will be cut back from the expansion...

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Especially considering that they already took off 3 months to plan around it, have already shifted priority to overhauling crafting and say they're at around 90% productivity even with remote working, and I am guessing the final 10% is more to do with voice acting and some other contracted out work more than anything. Beyond that the patch schedule is where it was. As for the cost-benefit criterion, I'd be more sympathetic to the argument if it were more widely applied across content, since a lot of marginal content seems to scrape by with minimal uptake to justify its presence...

Really, a lot of the difficulty here lies in how outdated the engine is. So it's not that these problems are impossible for them to solve, because they're not, but that they might not want to incur the cost of improving or overhauling the engine. Which is fine, but for some of us it is a little disappointing and makes us that much less invested in the game.

Engine overall or major improvements that would allow them to have an easier time dealing with the issues related to having ARR put together with duct tape and glue are pipe dreams and by no means should any reasonable person thing that will ever be on the table. Being disappointed over something that would never be a reality is a personal problem and not SE's.

Yes, well I'm not going to play some little gainsaying game where you make baseless claims, like it's a "pipe dream" and I say it's not. I don't care to waste my time in that way. So you go on with your life, I'll go on with mine, and I'll choose what I am disappointed over or not, whether it is my problem or SE's. Okay?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, well I'm not going to play some little gainsaying game where you make baseless claims, like it's a "pipe dream" and I say it's not. I don't care to waste my time in that way. So you go on with your life, I'll go on with mine, and I'll choose what I am disappointed over or not, whether it is my problem or SE's. Okay?

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It is not really a baseless claim, the amount of effort that goes into overhaling or making major adjustments to a game engine are monumental with even standard game engines. I cannot recall where, but I do believe Yoshi-P or someone working on the Dev team has gone on record saying that even the process of hiring new people to work on FFXIV is rough cause the way the engine is setup it requires extensive training due to the short cuts that were made during the relaunch of the game. Also the game came out in 2013, instead of a overhaul of the base game in terms of the engine it would make far more sense and probably would even cost less in terms of development hours while also maintaining a steady patch cycle to just come out with another MMO. Though FFXIV still makes them money with the current amount going into the game so from a corporate PoV why dump more money into a project that is already brings in a hefty amount of profit for the company? Sure from a fanbase and emotional PoV it would make sense, and I am sure if Yoshi-P had free reign over the budget allotment he could go balls the wall with the game, but sadly that is not the reality when it comes to project management. You have triage, and honestly based around how Yoshi-P framed the amount of work that went into creating what we got, I do not think it makes any finical sense to take on such a project again. I get from the sidelines it is easy, cause to a degree some of it is, I have worked on some personal mods when it comes to female bunbuns for friends and it is not extremely complicated on the induvial level. Though when on a team it is not as simple since you are juggling many different things and please the devs that do take their own personal time to work on their own passion projects to bring a little extra to the game. That should not be the expectation of the community though imo.

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Originally Posted by Awha

It is not really a baseless claim, the amount of effort that goes into overhaling or making major adjustments to a game engine are monumental with even standard game engines. I cannot recall where, but I do believe Yoshi-P or someone working on the Dev team has gone on record saying that even the process of hiring new people to work on FFXIV is rough cause the way the engine is setup it requires extensive training due to the short cuts that were made during the relaunch of the game. Also the game came out in 2013, instead of a overhaul of the base game in terms of the engine it would make far more sense and probably would even cost less in terms of development hours while also maintaining a steady patch cycle to just come out with another MMO. Though FFXIV still makes them money with the current amount going into the game so from a corporate PoV why dump more money into a project that is already brings in a hefty amount of profit for the company? Sure from a fanbase and emotional PoV it would make sense, and I am sure if Yoshi-P had free reign over the budget allotment he could go balls the wall with the game, but sadly that is not the reality when it comes to project management. You have triage, and honestly based around how Yoshi-P framed the amount of work that went into creating what we got, I do not think it makes any finical sense to take on such a project again. I get from the sidelines it is easy, cause to a degree some of it is, I have worked on some personal mods when it comes to female bunbuns for friends and it is not extremely complicated on the induvial level. Though when on a team it is not as simple since you are juggling many different things and please the devs that do take their own personal time to work on their own passion projects to bring a little extra to the game. That should not be the expectation of the community though imo.

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To come out with another mmo using the same engine that has lead us to our current list of issues ? Seems a bit counterintuitive if you ask me. Even more counterintuitive is attempting to spread resources so thin between content updates and working on a brand new game, and an mmo at that. You would almost be asking for a repeat of ARR. If I'm correct, this process of XIVs initial failure to the ARR revamp with one team working on the base game and another working on creating ARR took more than 2 years. And it took a couple more years thereafter for SE to see profits. Attempting to work off of memory of the documentary that's on youtube. It was a move out of pure desperation for SE, not one they'd be likely to dare want to risk again.

IMO, there will be a new engine needing to made if not already in the works. The current luminous (XV) will probably expend its technical boundaries in a few years here, and when and if that becomes the case then XIVs engine be considered without a doubt in need of an overhaul or an ARR style remake.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

To come out with another mmo using the same engine that has lead us to our current list of issues ? Seems a bit counterintuitive if you ask me. Even more counterintuitive is attempting to spread resources so thin between content updates and working on a brand new game, and an mmo at that. You would almost be asking for a repeat of ARR. If I'm correct, this process of XIVs initial failure to the ARR revamp with one team working on the base game and another working on creating ARR took more than 2 years. And it took a couple more years thereafter for SE to see profits. Attempting to work off of memory of the documentary that's on youtube. It was a move out of pure desperation for SE, not one they'd be likely to dare want to risk again.

IMO, there will be a new engine needing to made if not already in the works. The current luminous (XV) will probably expend its technical boundaries in a few years here, and when and if that becomes the case then XIVs engine be considered without a doubt in need of an overhaul or an ARR style remake.

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By no means did I mean to imply that is what they should do, was just providing that in theory it would be far less demanding on the dev team to come out with a new MMO instead of trying to fix the current engine of the game with a mass overhaul while also trying to maintain a reasonable patch cycle.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

PSO2 is a good example as is ESO.

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The amount of content added per update in PSO2 isn't the same as thats added to FF14 so they would have more time to mess with the graphics on the side. Hell we got more new costumes than new content. This coming from someone who's played pso2 for 8 years. Plus the coding is probably way less of a mess since it wasn't rushed out because of a failed 1.0 period that forced them to hastily put together a new game from the old mess. This also allowed them to add one new race though the only distinctive feature of that race was the horns and eyes.

All this to say that the character models were made to be more customizable from the start allowing them certain liberties on the side. All that gacha money they made from the ac roulette gots them in the clear

Why are some people in this thread just to rain on someone else's parade? I'm constantly seeing them just saying: "No, won't get them", "No, impossible", "No, stop dreaming" And not always with the best manners.
Seriously, just enjoy your race and let everyone else just be.

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Originally Posted by Ranhansha

Why are some people in this thread just to rain on someone else's parade? I'm constantly seeing them just saying: "No, won't get them", "No, impossible", "No, stop dreaming" And not always with the best manners.
Seriously, just enjoy your race and let everyone else just be.

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It's keeping reasonable expectations for Friday. I would be overjoyed with the announcement of the missing genders, but don't I realistically see them making time for them for 6.0 without making other content leaner than what we are probably going to get.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

It's keeping reasonable expectations for Friday. I would be overjoyed with the announcement of the missing genders, but don't I realistically see them making time for them for 6.0 without making other content leaner than what we are probably going to get.

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I've never actually wanted them myself. Always been neutral on their addition. SE said during ShB that it was their "last chance" to add new race(s), about just how difficult adding and maintaining races are. So I just find it odd that people ignore everything SE has said, and want them to just do it. These were issues BEFORE Covid, by the way.

I'm hoping to see further customization options for our current limited race(s). Some new hairs for viera, and maybe something to alleviate male hrothgar's issues, and more faces. It would be a shame in my view for SE to add the missing genders if they weren't ready, and to top it all off release them in just as limited a state as their counterparts. Just to please the players who think they want them. It's on them though, we wouldn't really know if they were or weren't ready until after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Ranhansha

Why are some people in this thread just to rain on someone else's parade? I'm constantly seeing them just saying: "No, won't get them", "No, impossible", "No, stop dreaming" And not always with the best manners.
Seriously, just enjoy your race and let everyone else just be.

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While I can't speak for others I am just trying to temper expectations, so we hopefully don't have a repeat of 2 years ago when this forum was full of very angry people acussing the devs of all sorts of nasty things. There is nothing wrong with wanting these races, but there are people here acting as if they have already been confirm when we have been told not to expect them anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

While I can't speak for others I am just trying to temper expectations, so we hopefully don't have a repeat of 2 years ago when this forum was full of very angry people acussing the devs of all sorts of nasty things. There is nothing wrong with wanting these races, but there are people here acting as if they have already been confirm when we have been told not to expect them anytime soon.

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I am keeping my expectations decently tempered as well (I'm literally expecting nothing so everything will be cool/a surprise) but I think its not only fair and expectable but also understanndable that many people will feel heavily let down if male viera and female hrotgar arent added

About all I'm expecting is a title and some basic preliminary info for 6.0 at this point. I wouldn't expect a definite yay or nay on the missing genders until we get the full trailer. Not even holding my breath for job reveals yet, and we know those are always a big selling point.

So, high hopes but tempered expectations. Patience is a virtue.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

It's keeping reasonable expectations for Friday. I would be overjoyed with the announcement of the missing genders, but don't I realistically see them making time for them for 6.0 without making other content leaner than what we are probably going to get.

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My expectations are minimal, in all honesty. My point is that I do want more out of an MMO at this point, but unfortunately it's a rather stagnant market, so there's rather weak impetus for them to do anything substantial, be it addressing their outdated engine, or bringing a new MMO to market with a less inflexible engine if they couldn't justify the cost of overhauling this one, and I find that disappointing. One can of course discuss whether that's a SE or a personal problem, but I believe that's a rather fruitless pursuit since I'm not seeking to attribute blame per se. I do expect they're going to gradually run into problems when stronger competitors emerge, in terms of getting new players, and they already seem to have retention issues which I suspect come from their current content focus. At that point the cost-benefit calculation may well shift in favour of it.

I'm less bothered about male viera than upgrades for the existing races, in all honesty. Although their addition would be nice, without knowing what SE would add, they're something of a gamble and therefore between them and what I already know I like to play, I'd prefer resources to go to the latter, if I were forced to make a choice between them. But without that constraint in mind, I'd like to see them come in because the two races just feel incomplete at present. It's one of those things an engine upgrade would make easier in both cases since the root of the issue is very similar...

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Originally Posted by spf1200

While I can't speak for others I am just trying to temper expectations, so we hopefully don't have a repeat of 2 years ago when this forum was full of very angry people acussing the devs of all sorts of nasty things. There is nothing wrong with wanting these races, but there are people here acting as if they have already been confirm when we have been told not to expect them anytime soon.

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Those sort of people will react that way regardless.

Man...it is SO weird seeing the posts now, compared to the posts last year and the Year before. XD

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Man...it is SO weird seeing the posts now, compared to the posts last year and the Year before. XD

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Well, I used to be hopeful, or semi-optimistic when it came to SE. Now I am realistic, or getting more and more there. We still haven't gotten something as minor as hairs for viera. Hrothgar are still in the sorry state they were in at launch. ShB had a great launch, but after that, I was quite disappointed, and this is before Covid. One thing I am hoping for is that this expansion delivers in not just the launch, but after as well.

I'd really like to see female viera/male hrothgar's issues alleviated. New hairs, new faces - which they already promised. I would rather not see them repeat what they did previously, and release the missing genders in a limited state. Though, like I said, I was never too invested in male viera/female hrothgar. Said it multiple times in this topic.

Though, I must say, I guess I do complain about SE much MUCH less than I used to. Which is funny. I end up praising them more often than not, it seems (except for moderation). It is funny to look or think back at old posts. But, I mean, I played many of their competitors, I still remember playing ESO last year, and missing this game. ESO just didn't have what I wanted. I prefer this game, and I prefer it over all other mmorpgs on the market right now, and I don't see anything coming out anytime soon that would make me want to play it over this, frankly. So, it's probably selfish, but I'd rather see this game thrive.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It'll be another two years of people begging requesting for SE to add male viera! :p

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well, it were 9 years of people asking to add female Viera, so... you know this community can be both patient and persistent when it really wants to.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Eh, we'll see. The 'it's too hard' excuse wears thin when competitors manage to complete bolder projects. WoW is also a much older game but has managed to add new playable races and upgrade its character creation system not once but twice. FFXIV, meanwhile, has claimed that adding stubble as a customisation option for Midlander men - despite using it for promotional footage - is also 'too hard'.

I'd be worried if, by 6.0, such limitations still exist. Is it a possibility? Certainly - but at that point it'd seem the game is deliberately settling for mediocrity on some fronts.

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I don't think that comparing WoW and FFXIV system is correct in the first place. With how current armor system works, to make new races and even new body options (not speaking about stubble) less resource-consuming they would need to rework armor system completely from scratch... and 19,032 (soon to be more with 5.45 drop) equip-able items along with it. I'm afraid it's easier to create new game with entirely new system than fixing this mountain of pain and mess. There should be things they could tweak here and there during the process, but I won't hold any hopes for serious character creator/armor system overhaul anytime soon. It's not that it's impossible to happen, it's more that the amount of work potentially asks for entire 2-years expansion period (if not more) just alone. It will be really great if they will find a way to do this, but chances are... not exactly high (but I will be more than glad to be proven wrong on this).



At this point all we can do is wait for Friday's announcements, I suppose. Personally not setting any expectations at all atm, so whatever they will announce - I'll be probably excited regardless. This tactic works well for 7 years now. XD

If we keep dragging the "any time soon" excuse a bit longer that "soon" might become 9, 11 or even 13 years, which is a weird concept for "soon" in my book, but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Ranhansha

If we keep dragging the "any time soon" excuse a bit longer that "soon" might become 9, 11 or even 13 years, which is a weird concept for "soon" in my book, but whatever.

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Good thing Viera have such long life spans. ;)

It'd be cool to see male viera / female hrothgar, but I wouldn't expect it, at all.

Yoshi-P was very clear about the unlikelihood of ever seeing them, and as far as we know, nothing has changed to make them possible.

It's funny how this thread went from torchlights and pitch forks to "Meh, i doubt they'll add them, I'll keep my expectations low, w/e mentality".

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

It's funny how this thread went from torchlights and pitch forks to "Meh, i doubt they'll add them, I'll keep my expectations low, w/e mentality".

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It would be concerning if people were holding torchlights for 2 years straight tbh. Initial state of this thread was the burst of emotions and disappointment. Now it's just "I would like to see them, but I understand that it's not something easy to do so I can wait" which is, uh, pretty much what every 2nd request thread is about - that's the way it should've been from the start, but things happened the way they happened.