What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Here's my dumb "theory": the Twelve are just toy puppet-constructs made by Hydaelyn based off the memories of the 12 who became her magical skinsuit in order to teach the cavemen sundered how to human. They were placed back into their toybox soon after, but something went wrong and they are awake, I guess. There will probably be nothing about the Convocation's early attempts to work with humanity, as Emet said in 5.0. The 'epilogue of the Hydaelyn and Hydaelyn and Hydaelyn and also guest starring Zodiark from Devil May Cry I guess saga' part has me pessismistic, though I'm sure I will be wrong and I will consume my shortpants.

Anyway, while Nald'Thal's design looks super cool and I love how the god of crafting's halo is made of nails, I'm not a fan of the idea of just running through a gauntlet of the Eorzean pantheon that has been in the background of the lore for a decade and casually just slaughtering them one-by-one before heading back home for burgers and coffee.

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I'm still clinging to my headcanon that they're an approximation of the Convocation surviving in mortal memory, until it gets proven wrong. :p I had thought that the way the 1UE is described could potentially fit the Convocation trying to measure man, and it'd fit as well if they were gradually "ascended" into their roles to mirror the gradual emergence of the gods, but not sure if that's more "wow I didn't know people noticed all that..."

Nald'thal's statues at least looked like they resembled Hades's transformed form and the deity shared some aspects with him, and Azeyma is reminiscent of Venat seeing as she used fans as a DPS, so we'll see if anything comes of it. But I could see your theory panning out as well.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Another friend and I were just discussing this yesterday, but she brought up what I thought was a really insightful point: the writers' perspective probably identified, correctly, that there would be a disconnect between the players and their worldview, and the Ancients' worldview. However, the assumption would be that the players' instinct would be to defend their world in the face of this gap and this discomfort, rather than confront the discomfort, consider it, and come to the conclusion: hey, you know what? The Ancients make sense. Their way is better. I'd rather live in this world than my own. So basically, we were, uh, less xenophobic than they anticipated?

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This is actually a pretty interesting take. But, unfortunately, it seems that the writers were mostly correct.

"Okay sure, our history may have done those X people dirty, but doing justice for them would hurt us, soooo....sucks to be them but I got mine." is definitely the default audience reaction. Far more people are praising Endwalker's story and accepting its morality at face value, even if they loved and felt bad for the Ancients, than those with incendiary hot takes like those in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

The "we went wrong" decision for me wasn't refusing to make the Ancients Very Very Bad, but refusing to adjust their conception of Hydaelyn As Good as would fit the story in a more organic way as it played out.

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Again, I am so sick to death of that cliche that I'm admittedly biased enough to be glad they didn't use it. I mean, yeah, Hydaelyn is still pretty heinous when you analyze the story, but I'm ironically glad that wasn't the theme.

EDITING for below:

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Was it meant to be a Chrono series reference, though? Dare I hope we may take on Lavos and/or Schala after all.

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Please don't give me false hope like that.

I'm a Chrono Trigger fan that has been waiting 27 years for a proper sequel. (No, not that one. I said a proper sequel.)

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I'm still clinging to my headcanon that they're an approximation of the Convocation surviving in mortal memory, until it gets proven wrong. :p I had thought that the way the 1UE is described could potentially fit the Convocation trying to measure man, and it'd fit as well if they were gradually "ascended" into their roles to mirror the gradual emergence of the gods, but not sure if that's more "wow I didn't know people noticed all that..."

Nald'thal's statues at least looked like they resembled Hades's transformed form and the deity shared some aspects with him, and Azeyma is reminiscent of Venat seeing as she used fans as a DPS, so we'll see if anything comes of it. But I could see your theory panning out as well.

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Azeyma has been my character's deity since her first day of life but if Azeyma turns out to be some venerated version of Venat, then it's off to the Fantasia store I go. Immediately.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I'm still clinging to my headcanon that they're an approximation of the Convocation surviving in mortal memory, until it gets proven wrong. :p I had thought that the way the 1UE is described could potentially fit the Convocation trying to measure man, and it'd fit as well if they were gradually "ascended" into their roles to mirror the gradual emergence of the gods, but not sure if that's more "wow I didn't know people noticed all that..."

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We still have time to throw in a callback to "Venat is a heretic!" from FFXII! Don't give up! Hold onto hope! Ohhh, hope, finding hope!

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

In the end, I was just disappointed that you couldn't tell Venat, "No. What you're saying sounds like a terrible idea. I don't care if Fandaniel played a crucial role in forestalling the Final Days on my timeline. In this timeline, you have a chance to do something about it. Tell the damn Convocation.

"As a friend of mine once said, 'This tragedy, greater than even the Seventh Umbral Calamity, must be undone. If history must be unwritten, let it be unwritten.'"

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Sorry to drone on and on, but my brain also pinged when reading this part of your post, but apparently could only handle processing one topic at a time.

Ahahaha, that quote. Between that one and the one someone posted early about Alphinaud protesting the Rejoining because it would erase "their culture, their history", the googly eyes are real. Was it meant to be a Chrono series reference, though? Dare I hope we may take on Lavos and/or Schala after all?

The part where Venat kicks you out is so weird, though. After giving you a fliimsy reason about why you shouldn't immeditely run to Emet-Selch and tell him exactly what just happened, she gives you this long speech after getting you on board about how, just like you, she'll try hard and hey, who knows what will happen (where, reading between the lines carefully, you can tell she's already made up her mind to let Hermes's test play out) and also whoa look I bet your time travel juice is running out you better leave now! Right now.

It goes without saying at this point that of course the intent wasn't to have anything malicious about Venat basically saying "Yeah, uh, I'll try hard too. Just like you! Anyway leave. NOW." But in context of everything else, again, in the text as it exists now, uh, hm. Hm.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

If, after the nuanced tragedy of Shadowbringers, it was retconned into "actually yes, they were terrible people and this wasn't a horrific competition of resources between two deserving groups where only one can win, we were truly righteous and better", I still would have been angry. Like, it's probably overwrought, but especially in this day and age, Shadowbringers's approach was important to me. The "we went wrong" decision for me wasn't refusing to make the Ancients Very Very Bad, but refusing to adjust their conception of Hydaelyn As Good as would fit the story in a more organic way as it played out. So they very doggedly are going to hammer that square peg into the round hole, and you will like it, dammit!

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Exactly this. I'm resistant to the idea that they had to be dragged down or exposed to be some dystopia, because it's a common trope in a lot of fantasy games with (higher) beings, and it's not an approach I favour.

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So basically, we were, uh, less xenophobic than they anticipated?

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Well, for me it's less to do with anything relating to xenophobia and more that I can conceptualise that optimal social structures for species with entirely different innate traits to ours in some ways (longer lifespans, very potent innate magical abilities etc.) will differ to what works for us. Also, at the end of the day, it's a fantasy game, so the point to me is escapism rather than just earth 2.0.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Azeyma has been my character's deity since her first day of life but if Azeyma turns out to be some venerated version of Venat, then it's off to the Fantasia store I go. Immediately.

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I already made the switch to Nald'thal. :p I think I only ever picked Azeyma because I played a sun cat the first time round...

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

This is actually a pretty interesting take. But, unfortunately, it seems that the writers were mostly correct.

"Okay sure, our history may have done those X people dirty, but doing justice for them would hurt us, soooo....sucks to be them but I got mine." is definitely the default audience reaction. Far more people are praising Endwalker's story and accepting its morality at face value, even if they loved and felt bad for the Ancients, than those with incendiary hot takes like those in this thread.

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I think people can simultaneously be vulnerable to (speaking of SCORCHING HOT TAKES) emotion-fueled apologism propaganda, the basic desire to want to enjoy the story and just enjoy the ride, alongside an instinctual "hey, these Ancients seem like good people and their society is neat." Most people were happily accepting of Venat and EW's take on her, yes, but most people also liked the Ancients and thought they were "good people," as Yoshida acknowledged himself. I think for a lot of people, it either doesn't occur to them, or they flat out don't think it's worth the trouble, to cross those streams in their minds.

EDIT WARS:

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Again, I am so sick to death of that cliche that I'm admittedly biased enough to be glad they didn't use it. I mean, yeah, Hydaelyn is still pretty heinous when you analyze the story, but I'm ironically glad that wasn't the theme.

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I get that, but personally, I was way too psyched about the way Shadowbringers seemed to reject an equally tired cliche (oh no, the advanced Ancient society was doomed and fell to their own hubris and brought on their own destruction!) in favor of humanization that I would take that one, over destroying Shadowbringers, in a heartbeat. In my ideal world, Hydaelyn at least wouldn't be mustache-twirling evil, just a deeply ruthless figure approximately equal to Emet-Selch - if we can't directly oppose her, I think there are artistic ways to handle a "lack of catharsis" in that regard, if it's at least acknowledged and explored.

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I'm a Chrono Trigger fan that has been waiting 27 years for a proper sequel. (No, not that one. I said a proper sequel.)

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Oh, god, I feel your pain, hard. I think "that one" had some interesting and even promising concepts behind its premise, but in execution, I... oh boy. Well. Maybe a talk for another topic, someday!

It's worth bearing in mind that there's a lot of people who weren't too bothered about the third batch of sacrifices but thought that she was right in her assessment that her people wouldn't change, plus given the time loop, think there's little she could've done otherwise, so it's less about them seeing the ancients as somehow bad, as it is that they think her actions were necessary to avoid the Plenty. I strongly disagree on that point, because she never shared the truth of the situation with her people, which I think given their love for the star would condition a change in stance, but putting that aside, I believe that's why one can both roll with the story as was written while also view the ancients as undeserving victims of necessity. I am glad though that they were moved to address the issue and concede that the audience reception to the ancients was different to what they (or more specifically, Yoshi) had envisioned it might be.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's worth bearing in mind that there's a lot of people who weren't too bothered about the third batch of sacrifices but thought that she was right in her assessment that her people wouldn't change, plus given the time loop, think there's little she could've done otherwise, so it's less about them seeing the ancients as somehow bad, as it is that they think her actions were necessary to avoid the Plenty. I strongly disagree on that point, because she never shared the truth of the situation with her people, which I think given their love for the star would condition a change in stance, but putting that aside, I believe that's why one can both roll with the story as was written while also view the ancients as undeserving victims of necessity.

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Yeah, again, that common and well-worn rhetorical technique of "ah, it's so sad and awful, but unfortunately, we have no choice. Trust me bro. Single teardrop."

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I'm a Chrono Trigger fan that has been waiting 27 years for a proper sequel. (No, not that one. I said a proper sequel.)

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I almost played Chrono Cross but my PS3 decided it didn't like the disc for some reason, so I had to just give up early on. With that said, I also read up on CT's story (spoilered myself intentionally, but I still intend to play the Steam version), and it did get me pretty pumped to see something based off Lavos at the root of the Final Days.

The majority of players just don't think about it. I've come across a lot of people, including streamers, who took the post-Elpis cutscene at face value and believed that's how events unfolded. Hell, yesterday on another forum someone essentially told me I didn't understand/had it wrong, that Venat had stopped the sacrifice to restore the world because she thought their people should learn to rebuild rather than wish everything back to the way it was. I didn't even know where to start. :P

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Originally Posted by Lauront

If the sundered were forcefully subjected to this fate, I doubt they’d somehow just roll with it because it isn’t “really” genocide – yes, it is. It would wipe them out as species in their current form and result in something quite unrecognisable to them if done in the same way as it was done to the ancients.

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Not that the Scions are any strangers to hypocrisy, but Alphinaud already made this statement in ShB:

https://i.imgur.com/zIOeuPv.jpg

So, no, they would not be okay with being sundered 'for their own good', they would've fought tooth and nail against it, which is (again) why it's so galling that not a one of them have any criticisms for Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Until we see how things actually happen, WITHOUT us being present, maybe then they'll be able to justify the sundering, but I highly doubt we'll ever get now that they're keen to move on from this storyline entirely. And you know what? I'm actually ok with that. I hope they never again approach this level of moral dilemma and this many lives hanging in the balance of whatever is going on. They've proven extensively that they can't handle it.

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I'm so torn on this because on one hand I want the fate of the Ancients 'fixed' somehow, but on the other I don't want them to touch it any further if they're just going to make it worse. All I wanted was an AU. -_-

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Here's my dumb "theory": the Twelve are just toy puppet-constructs made by Hydaelyn based off the memories of the 12 who became her magical skinsuit in order to teach the cavemen sundered how to human.

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I will be irritated beyond measure if they have anything to do with Venat. Enough is enough, the entirety of EW was practically one big Hydaelyn worshiping session. Like, seriously, who in corporate is sleeping with her body pillow and calling these shots? It reminds me of the burning of Teldrassil in WoW, that's what one person (Afrasiabi) wanted, the rest of the writing team didn't want to do it, but he got his way due to his seniority.

Fortunately, my main's deity is Halone due to Ishgard, so in that respect it doesn't matter what the 'truth' is about her as she's still the patron deity of what I consider my character's home. My alt's deity is Azeyma though, which I picked before I found out Venat was the former Azem.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Another friend and I were just discussing this yesterday, but she brought up what I thought was a really insightful point: the writers' perspective probably identified, correctly, that there would be a disconnect between the players and their worldview, and the Ancients' worldview. However, the assumption would be that the players' instinct would be to defend their world in the face of this gap and this discomfort, rather than confront the discomfort, consider it, and come to the conclusion: hey, you know what? The Ancients make sense. Their way is better. I'd rather live in this world than my own. So basically, we were, uh, less xenophobic than they anticipated?

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My opinion is I think they underestimated how appealing the Ancient civilization appears compared to our own, especially since the pandemic. Maybe we're supposed to compare it to Eorzea (which I still don't think is that great), but after the divisiveness of the past couple of years seeing a society where everyone is kind, considerate, and respectful of one another and, as Emet said in ShB (paraphrased) where their differences paled in comparison to what they had in common, it felt like a dream. It was a nice escape and I think that's what most people want, especially from their entertainment.